i would rather have a billion dollars of medicine than a billion dollars of cops. all day, any day

Pretty sure not nearly as bad as closing half the hospitals

I get where you're coming from here. Like, I get that it's comforting to think you can identify a rapist just by looking for a badge, but, unfortunately, not all rapists wear badges & allowing the ones who do to band together in solidarity makes people LESS safe. So no, we should disband the cops.

List them.

Some of those who work forces are the same as burn crosses.

oh lmao so you’re pro ICE as well. You’re fine with having a gestapo as long as a few bad ones are fired as an “example” to some dumb centrists (nobody that matters)

Do you think cops prevent crime

I think people commit fewer crimes in the presence or immediate vicinity of cops than they do if they know there is no risk of being caught. How is that even debatable? Active Prevention? Almost certainly not. Passive Deterrence? Of course.

Shootings and crimes happen around cops all the time because they don’t do anything positive for people and police collectively do thousands of crimes themselves every day. They murder more than a thousand people a year. Another old white guy choking on a boot in my mentions

None of which has even the slightest relevance to the question being discussed. You're not the brightest bulb even in the illiterate abject moron box, are you? Muting you now - have a nice life. Don't forget to breath every few seconds.

There's no need to be condescending. This person was agreeing with you that cops are useless thugs.

No, the idiot was *disagreeing* that there is any deterrence value in the mere presence of a cop. Basically HIS claim was that if I'm a homicidal criminal who wants to shoot you I'm just as likely to do it if there's a policeman standing right next to us as if we are alone in an empty field.

The moron was literally arguing that the very presence of a policeman does not affect decisions by criminals. Which is a very, very stupid thing to argue REGARDLESS of your position on whether cops are useless thugs.

I mean that's not actually what they said, but either way it doesn't matter because we all agree that cops *are* useless thugs and should be gotten rid of.

You're too stupid to be condescending big dawg

“You're not the brightest bulb even in the illiterate abject moron box, are you?”

Do you think the amount of people speeding would increase, decrease, or stay about the same if there were no traffic cops?

we have a bunch where i live and white people still speed and drive aggressively because they know they won’t get harassed and one of the traffic cops just killed a motorcyclist while having a .17 BAC then tried to drive off with the bike still under her car and didnt even get charged.

Who cares??

Sure 4 people were killed by cops and 36 ICE kidnappings were facilitated by traffic stops of POC with a dim taillight but average speeds on the 57 freeway are down 0.16 MPH because of cars slowing down to avoid the traffic stops checkmate lefties

Love when I almost rear-end someone because they slam on the brakes because a cop cut them off to tailgate a rusty minivan

Most people who are driving care because they'd like to not get into a potentially fatal traffic accident.

So im sure you're going to show us something outlining how cops giving tickets to people late for work prevents this?

Let's ignore the fact that you're arguing it will save more lives than a functional hospital, show me where it saves any lives

Here's one study that shows that increased decrease in enforcement caused increase in highway fatallities okb.oregon.gov/Pages/effect...

Wow that guy has done quite a bit of research regarding police and state surveillance I wonder who has funded all his work..oh...oooh I see

Also just a quick overview of this is pretty clear its little more than subjective, if they hadn't laid off cops in 2003 less people would have died between 1971 and 2002?

1979*

It's based on comparing the traffic numbers for nearby states that did not experience the same amount of police being laid off over the same period of time.

God damn that Koch pocketbook is generous.

I like that the grants are like $10,000 $20,000 then Charles Koch is just let hey dude here's $5,400,000 million to say cops are nessecary

I'm not saying for that much money I wouldn't also do it but I expect y'all to be smart enough to connect some dots

That only shows a correlation. Which say it with me kids: doesn’t prove causation

“Correlation does not equal causation” is a 101 level understanding of science. We teach that in early research classes, because correlation can easily be confused with causation. However, for causality you need 3 things 1) correlation; 2) x came before y; and 3) only x affected y.

Yeah thats why what you’re arguing is stupid it’s funny you seem to understand that

The reason it's not stupid is because you can't isolate the independent variable in this. This is also true of most other social science studies. These correlation studies are the only large-scale studies there are, and what everyone has to rely on when determining the scientific truth.

For each word I read of sofasleeper my mental health decreases. Does that mean sofasleeper is the cause? No im at my boring day job this trend is unrelated. Thank you for attending 3rd grade science

The correlation is between how deep Charles Kochs pockets are and how nessecary Gregory D'Angelo believes law enforcement is

Yeah that “my grandfather planned to hold the world strategic oil reserve for Hitler’s third Reich” money goes far

Now do all the murders cops do. And get away with.

In Oregon, about 20 people are killed by police shootings every year (whether they are found wrong or not). The above study estimates about 88 fatalities were caused by the decrease in police in Oregon.

Not Oregon. Nationally.

600 people are fatally shot by police each year (found wrong or not). If we extrapolate from the above study, if we got rid of police enforcement of traffic, there'd be an increase of much more than 600 traffic fatalities each year.

How do cops prevent fatal accidents. Wouldn’t better road designs and other traffic calming/enforcement measures do what they clearly cant. I’d rather not sacrifice the lives of my minority friends because we are stupid when it comes to building roads only for cars

It dissuades people from speeding because they become more cautious about receiving a traffic ticket.

Beyond what you just said being purely theoretical (rich white people absolutely are not worried about getting a ticket that is like the normal person equivalent 50 cents to them) what about all the bad stuff I mentioned that cops do at traffic stops. And what about designing roads better first

Also armed racist MAGA agents of the state are not the only way to enforce traffic regulations. It is simply the most extremely violent one

Rich white people don't want traffic tickets either. It makes them feel guilty and they can potentially get their driver's license revoked.

There are a shit ton of studies that show that speeding enforcement causes accidents, whether it's from cops being reckless or from people slamming their brakes when they see the cops. You also don't need cops to enforce speeding laws

And this goes wayyyyyy up once cops initiate an extremely dangerous chase through dense urban areas

I don't know of studies that show speeding enforcement causes a net increase in accidents. Everything I find shows the opposite. For example: okb.oregon.gov/Pages/effect...

Dawg you didn't know about the most recent NYC police strike, you could fill a universe with the shit you don't know about

You're not citing any studies or directly refuting my citation.

Serious causation doesn't equal correlation issues here. That survey cannot make the determination that somehow that ~8% increase could have been prevented with more cops but not all of those accidents involved illegal driving behavior or behavior that would have been "policed" out.

There is no practical large-scale study that can be conducted that doesn't run into the correlation != causation issue.

If there isn't a cop around, do you just straight gun it? Like do you crush through your neighborhood at 55 blowing stop signs and the like because "no one is out this time of night" and that you know the cops most likely aren't around? Give a majority of people credit, man bsky.app/profile/dirt...

Me personally? No, I try to drive responsibly. That's also probably true of most people. It'd only take an increase of like 5% of drivers starting to speed to cause a massive increase to traffic collisions though.

Drivers being distracted, drivers having a medical crisis, sheer bad luck, mechanical failures. Cops are not stopping those even if you had a checkpoint every half mile everywhere.

If it was TRULY about public travel safety, you'd see cops out at all the major intersections assisting traffic and keeping the flow on the highways going. Instead they basically do Big Game Trophy hunting with which ever member of the flock wasn't slick enough to get away with it.

Every study ever done shows ALL CRIMES DECREASES in the absence of cops Proving that cops cause crime

Police absolutely commit more crimes than they solve or prevent that is true

Have you heard of cameras?

Yes, I am aware of traffic cameras. They are very useful at reducing speeding.

There being other things that reduce speeding doesn't mean that police don't also reduce speeding.

Do cameras shoot people?

They do in the hit game Metal Gear Solid for PSX

dumping leaking barrels of nuclear waste on freeways would reduce speeding too what's your point

There seems to be dispute on whether police reduce crime in the first place.

I don’t think cops should make traffic stops for moving violations that’s how a lot of police murders, brutality and ICE kidnappings happen. There are better and far less dangerous/expensive ways to enforce traffic laws

Who gives a shit?

Me, who likes to not crash into people while I'm driving. I'm safer if other people are not speeding.

So the United States has 40,000 traffic deaths a year (and the most per capita in the developed world) and also we spend more on police than all but a few countries on Earth spend on their militaries so how exactly is that working out

I agree the US is bad at traffic safety! It was comparable until around 1990. I think it was related to vehicle regulations (cars are bigger in the US), but it doesn't mean police don't reduce traffic accidents pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC...

But it kinda means exactly that if both the number of police, the amount we spend on them, and the number of traffic related deaths are all well above the global norm.

Who gives a shit?

We need fascism to stop speeding! The world's least stupid liberal

You can have police without fascism! All governments have police enforcing traffic, but not all governments are fascist!

my guess is the amount of speeding would increase, but we'd have significantly fewer drunken domestic abusers on the road (google 40% of cops!) so I'd say on average the safety of our roads would probably even out, if get somewhat safer.

What happened in NYC when the cops threw a fit and didn't work for a week? Did crime go up or down?

The one in 1971? It was less than a week and some officers kept working critical duties, so there wasn't a measurable impact on crime.

Do you think its been 54 years since the last time cops threw a hissyfit?

It was the largest and most famous NYC police strike, I was assuming that's the one they were referring to.

No the one post-George Floyd protests you dumb baby

I'm having trouble finding details on that strike, including the amount of the police that went on strike and the impact on crime, but I'd imagine that it had even less of a measurable impact on crime.

damn if only there was a way to monitor traffic without police. oh well

Decrease. Cops speed all the time.

No, but that doesnt mean solving murders is bad

That requires a militarized police force?

We should take away some money and weapons from the police is a dramatically different proposal than "we should have no police in the state of michigan" notably in that one of them is a good idea and the other is a brain damaged take

you all keep willfully misunderstanding the term “state police” as every department in the entire state and not just the state patrol which doesn’t need a billion dollars to write traffic tickets.

Hey now, I hated cops BEFORE the brain damage

Some roles of the police are useful, and should be replaced with people doing similar things. Most of their roles are harmful. But even if we got rid of them completely and didn't replace them with anything, the food that would do would outweigh the bad.

I think that there would probably be more violence overall if instead of having cops that can round up the simplest of murder cases where everyone knows both the victim and assailant we resolved those by cycles of violent blood feuds

Even if every single murder turned into a cycle of blood feuds, it wouldn't outweigh the enormous amount of violence the police commit.

But luckily, we don't have to choose - we can have it both ways! We just have a group of people whose job involves investigating murders, but we get rid of the people whose job is to protect the interests of capital and brutalise poor and marginalised people. It's win-win!

Damn if only there was stuff like data and studies that provides more solid evidence than what you "think". Not that you've ever had an original thought in your life

Feel free to share all the evidence of societies with no policing that didnt dissolve into blood fueds or increased violence

Do you have an example of a society where the founding of a modern police force led to reduced violence?

Like, around 1% of Americans are currently victims of violence / violent threats at the hands of the police *every single day*. They need to prevent a hell of a lot of violence to even break even!

You're decades late on this shit and only showing you have never engaged with the justice movement

Nice ableism big dawg

Cops don't solve murders though. They clear at most 50% of murder cases and half the time they get an innocent person. Literally, there are CONSERVATIVE estimates that 50% of murder convicts were wrongfully convicted

Shut up, nerd.

Knew I liked you for a reason, von Doom.

Bad outcomes? Like a decrease in domestic violence perpetrated by cops against their wives and kids?

Ono cops won't get the chance to murder unarmed Black children in the neck anymore

WITHOUT THE COPS WHO WILL CATCH MY RUNAWAY SLAVES

Who will shoot my dog after flashbanging my family while we're doing movie night because they raided the wrong house???

you see ,for the cops would have to actually get some workplace sills, and be part of the community, instead of lording above it. oh no someone think of the state sanctioned mob./sarc

Name some

I mean, yeah, cleaning up the bodies would be a challenge, but that's the price of getting fascist goons away from our communities

Oh no then who will shoot a bunch of dogs and flashbang toddlers??

ACAB actually so jot that down

Yeah because Detroit PD is a shining example of a quality police department 🙄 I'm BEGGING AND PLEADING for all of you Hot Stove nerds to log the fuck off and get the fuck out of your Blue City Bubbles and actually see how the rest of America has to live. Fucking West Wing watching ass clown