It can be galling to see one's period misrepresented onscreen but that shouldn't be reason to deny historical truths, like that medieval people shuffled around giving it the whole 'my liege' all the time, unless they had cheekbones in which case they were the king
They were also repressed by the violence inherent in the system.
Highly recommend the Media-eval podcast! They haven't posted in a while, but it's two medievalists essentially reviewing movies/shows about the period.
So you're saying that prominent cheekbones are a deformity caused by rampant incest?
this one made me *snort* laughing
There's been a lot of ink spilt on when the medieval period ends and the early modern period begins, which can get in the way of the simple truth: it happened in 1450.
Never before in the field of bluesky were so many historians hurt so badly by so few characters
How about 1485, when a Welsh usurper seized the English throne?
Them’s fighting words John.
Can't see what's controversial there! Started 1450, ended 1750, handing over the baton to modernity, reason, and much worse paintings for some reason
Hey everyone, it's another round number fetishist.
As an early modernist working on Spain, I can happily confirm that it clearly happened in 1492
Columbus, the fall of Grenada and the Expulsion of the Jews! What more could you ask for?
This cheap attempt to create beef between academic areas will not work. *grabs popcorn, eagerly reads replies* Damn it.
God, you’re so good at this. Take it on tour at various faculty meetings.
It would date from the fall of the Roman Empire, wouldn’t it? So 1922.
Day and time or you're not a REAL historian. 😁
25th of March baby, happy new year
Perfect. Up there with the day the Ice Age ended.
Nope, 19th of July - coincidentally, same day Galway was liberated from the Indians.
25th March is just another day to let off fireworks.
Yeah but how come 100 Hundred Years War ending *and* Fall Of Constantinople in 1453 unless everyone knew it was a big deadline like Y2K or the end of 3G networks.
Picking the final date for the 100 years way is very much like naming a Dinosaur at 4.59pm on a Friday - looking at you Argentinosaurs.
Yeah but it didn't go to extra time
I like to round to centuries for the big periods, in which case gotta go with 1500. If we're snapping to events, gotta be 1453, no?
1536-40?
I always think of ‘early modern’ as beginning when I was born, i.e. 1950.
Ha!
That’s when it all seemed to kick off.
Is that when they started to wash?
No, we have to wait for Van Leeuwenhoek and the invention of the microscope.
Nah, the early modern period began when people *stopped* washing and began to wipe themselves down with linen instead.
Early modern is when they invented colour history and they didn't have to go around in shades of drab all the time. Easily confused with being constantly dirty though!
1453.
1517. Maybe 1563. Or 1492. Did I mention that periodization is hot, stinking garbage?
Spengler would like a word..
I hold that it's about 2 pm on 30 January 1649 (in England ), and about a century earlier in Wales, but I accept that's a minority view.
Wait why
In jest - mostly - if you regard the Civil War as just another baronial revolt (which you can sort of make a case for), it sort of makes sense: the difference being that the deposed king was executed in public as a criminal, rather than disposed of quietly, in private. Wales, much more clear cut.
And this is an entirely correct response.
Had this exact same ... 'discussion' with someone in a very hot field at the weekend, while dressed entirely in wool 😂
In the beer tent?
No, worse – on the march!
I had such bad 'pikeman's crotch' once, that I stayed in my tent whimpering all evening.
Worcester?
I have every sympathy with you on that! I am not being entirely serious as you might have gathered (but not entirely flippant, either). We really shouldn't take this sort of thing dogmatically, especially while wearing wool in full sunshine.
I'm a soundly 'Three Kingdoms' man, but even then you've got to explain a fair deal. John Rees' recent book on the 'Fiery Spirits' is a good other side to Adamson's 'Noble Revolt', a revolution from above AND below.
But yes, once you start trying to create clear lines between things you realise the ground is made of sand...
Good GIF, too.
So does that mean Wales would have entered modernity before England?
Maybe, depending on what you think 'modernity' is. Removing the status of Welsh law and the customs of the March (along with that area's legal independence), along with realigning the landholding of huge areas ends something that's established in stages from c.1000. Let's call that the Middle Ages.
Anyway, what I'm really getting at is that, in Wales, the *entire country* (for want of a better word), goes from being private property, in one way or another, to a regular part of the kingdom of England in under a decade. That's genuinely new.
But Henry VIII? Absolutely a medieval monarch. Just with a lot of surviving paperwork. Edward VI? Discuss. Ditto Mary and Elizabeth. James I/VI would have been quite offended, I suspect!
📌
Simply, the entire legal status, basis and structures of government and legal system was harmonised and brought in line with England at the same tome as the monasteries (really important landholders in Wales and its March), were dissolved so between 1536 and 1542. Genuinely revolutionary.
But I am - as a medievalist - mostly taking the mickey out of such arbitrary definitions. You can place these boundaries where you want for whatever reasons you like.
Then the Middle Ages ended in 2130 with the invention of time travel
we won't know until after we get there.
If you like! The longer I work as a historian, the less inclined I am to get hung up on periodisation.
This is one of the questions I regularly put to my survey students on exams.
It's a really useful (if annoying), question. And a great mental exercise.
Owing to a considerable gap in hiring and expertise in our department, it's very rare that I get 1789 as a response...
In art history I think it’s about 1620 in England, which is pretty much exactly when I start to lose interest
The last day of 1599 11:59:59. I'm never sure if it's the old or new calendar. I always kind of fudge the issue unless I need to be serious.
How is there a cartoon for this discourse? I love it! (Leave it to Kate! Hahaha!)
(Who is on here btw - katebeaton.bsky.social)
Just found her after posting!
I love this.
This is how I feel when people talk about “revolutionary” AI technology
Haha
My understanding is that Ireland, the world and Henry VIII were medieval until the exact moment that modernity was birthed by Henry VIII having himself declared king of Ireland. Certainly this is what all the books say.
Its start coincides with the idea of diabolical witchcraft coming to prominence. Coincidence?
1453 to be precise
No, that's when the Middle Ages *began*. As is very widely understood, the Middle Ages are what comes after the Romans.
No, your middle ages begin a little after 40, whether you’re Roman or not.
No, because that was the Fall of Constantinople and thus the end of the world. I won’t be taking questions.
The end of civilisation and the birth of modernity. Discuss.
Fair enough. I think this deserves to be debated at length on TikTok.
Yes, in England in 1450 everyone stopped singing Sumer Is Icumen In and then couldn’t sing anything at all until Henry VIII wrote Greensleeves.
😆
When the royalties go to royalty.
