Heh. As far as I'm concerned, there are two types of developers. Type 1: "Only 30% of our players do a romance, so it should remain unimportant overall." Type 2: "30% of our players do a romance *despite* it being unimportant, and those are our most ardent fans. What if we made it... better?" 😉
I remember hearing about this years ago at MIGS, I believe it was about Mass Effect 2 maybe? And how Bioware had chosen to embrace the way that different fans were approaching the game. It was an inspiration at the time for character studies and branching narratives.
Do you also think that sometimes a developer just has to go with their vision even if the data, or players, don't support it? I feel myself much more attracted to games that have a strong vision that isn't that broadly appealing. I also feel that those games last long because of such a vision.
Like the data is important but if it comprises on what people liked about the game then should they really be listened to?
I'm firmly a type 2 person then
I love me some social relationships in games, be they romantic or otherwise. Like, my biggest gripe with the Persona 3 remake was no girl mode, so no romancing Akihiko. Also can’t go through Mass Effect without romancing Garrus.
“Data-driven decision-making” yet ignoring that 30% of players might be ~millions of people~
and that's why some gamers (including me) have been following you since the very beginning of your games. Thank you for your work.
I am more likely to buy a game that has romance than one that doesn't. I also actively look for games that include romance...Will i still play one without it? sure, but most of the time I go "romance would have be nice in this game."Especially games that are centred around multiple characters.
Saaame !!
and there are players like me who will not bother with a game if it has no romance, but will sink hundreds and hundreds of obsessive hours into games that do. i will find every last piece of elfroot and complete every single side quest but only if there’s a Dorian to go home to and smile at
Same. Was talking to my eldest this morning about how I find games more realistic if there's romance/intimacy involved. I feel if done well, it adds another layer to a narrative. It can't take the place of other things, but I'm more likely to spend time and money on a game with romance than not.
It’s so frustrating that when a small number of dedicated fans exist for something straight men like it’s a cult classic and when a small number of dedicated fans exist for something women like it’s grounds for dismissal.
mmm I have a lot to say re: this double standard popping up in creative leadership, but I will keep my mouth shut :)
Oh my goodness I never thought about it this way. 😭
Case in point: young justice had a larger than usual female fan base, which was part of why it was originally cancelled, because marketing firms don’t think women and girls will buy action figures (which is INSANITY)
Mirror’s Edge, a game with a female protagonist was given something like half the marketing budget of other male-led games.
A good romance storyline cam draw in players like me who aren't that fussed but can be persuaded. I was somewhat surprised to learn my reoccurring role-play character is not only open to romance during her adventures but very definitely has a type
I wonder how much of yhe 70% would do a non-romantic friendship. The downtime with the team in DAI was exemplary, especially trying to get the advance copy of HiH for Cass and she's all flustered about it. Coryphawho, it's the squad for me
Come on now. It was the lesser known, critically panned Tethras title "Swords and Shields" that she was after 😉 dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Guilty_...
Sorry I just lived it, didn't have time to write it down. (It's been a while and unlike my Inquisitor, I am only human)
Dorian's interjection during the conversation, her snapping "You stay out of it, Tevinter," and his response of, "I couldn't finish the last one. I actually feel dumber for having tried" as he sauntered off is a bit that has stuck in my head for ten years for a reason
I'd happily take more romances in games and deeper ones too. I loved Dorian's romance in inquisition and would happily take more romances like that.
What if, and I'm just spitballing here, game companies considering romance realized that there are a ton of genre specialists out there who could be consulted/hired? The number of game romance flubs I've seen that could have been easily avoided...
I want to be able to romance my squad mates in Call of Duty. No, no, the multiplayer mode.
I suppose I should add: while it might seem otherwise, I don't think one type is better than the other. Using data to drive decisions is good - relying solely on anecdotal data and gut to drive all decisions is a path to its own sort of madness - but relying solely on it leaves no place for vision.
The thing about data (and telemetry, in particular) is that there's also a tendency to see what you want to see in it. It can also lead to a "follow the leader" type development we see a lot, where dev teams only look to what's currently hot and what's already proven and see no value in inspiration.
At some point, I think you do need to put the data aside. You need to ignore what players *think* they want and imagine what they *really* do - that's your role as a dev, and it's a scary one... particularly since convincing higher-up publisher types of that is nigh impossible. 😉
That’s like marketing (or software development, or anything really): You can’t just do what the clients *say* they want, you have to really listen and understand what they don’t know yet that the *actually* want.
Matt Colville has talked a couple of times about how, when getting playtest feedback, he just wants to know whether people think something works in its current state or not, and not what they like or don't like about it, because people are often wrong about what that actually is.
I remember once asking one of our studio GMs when an EA dude was present about whether an over reliance on past data would ever undercut our ability to genuinely try something new. Answer wasn't great though EA guy was also in attendance haha.
I remember people arguing to cut certain romances, and then I looked at the telemetry and pointed out that more people played some of those romances, percentage-wise, than played a dwarven Inquisitor or a rogue, so if we were looking for cuts, they were welcome to start there.
I would have missed dwarves if they were cut. They are such a cool race in Dragon Age. Absolutely top tier fiction.
Is it normal that I read "not many people play rogues" and thought "awesome, more loot for me" That's normal right That's normal and okay
Perfectly normal. Perfectly okay. Shadowy, silent high five.
I don't really understand why romance in games is so looked down on. It's ok when it's a preplanned romance with set characters, but you give players an option and suddenly it's tacky. Though having also played various types of VNs for years and seeing how people react to those i have suspicions :/
I think a big reason why people don't like it is because they think people are taking it too seriously and are diminishing real life romances. That is at least what Josh Swayer, Obsidian developer, says is the reason he doesn't like romances.
Though Josh Swayer doesn't think people are lesser if they enjoy romances in games. He just feels like he is expected to have it and doesn't like that. Though other people might think others are lesser for enjoying romances.
Looking at the dwarf rogue Inquisitor I did my first playthrough on: "Oh." 😅
Wait really? I know most DA players choose mage and with good reason, but is rogue that impopular? I'm getting sidetracked from an important discussion, I'm aware, it's just that rogue has always been my fave class and now I'm curious
Rogue and warrior were honestly shit in DAO, because they were turbo-boring. But warrior at least was sturdy. So I'm not surprised that rogues were so low.
After Origins, I always played a rogue on the first play-through of a DA game because otherwise you missed some early loot.
I don't remember Veilguard telemetry, but on DAI, it was like... 15%? It was low. I think that mage and warrior are intuitive, but "like the warrior except light armor and more finesse" isn't a big selling point for folks. I loved how rogue played in Veilguard, so maybe it picked up there.
this makes me feel like a unicorn because I played a dwarven archery rogue in inquisition lol
Who looks at Sera and thinks, “damn, I don't want to play that”.
Wait, really? That's absolutely wild to me - cuz in all *my* playthroughs of the games, even replays, I've been entirely rogues & mages, and never once played a warrior because it always seemed incredibly boring and unappealing to me 😅
I gotta mention that while I play mostly rogue in all 4 DAs, and while I liked all 3 classes in Veilguard, the only one who came intuitive to me was rogue. That's the only game where such a big distinction compared to the other two (and tbh mostly just on a vibe scale)
iirc dai was like even 30% split across the board CAVEAT (pms love those) a lot of that (as well as romancing a certain elf) was driven by multiple playthroughs and first choice of class was like 40/40/20 warrior/mage/rogue
Wait what, now I am also distracted. Rogue is the only thing I ever want to play... until you corrupted me with stabby magic rogue. 😂
Damn, that's so wild to me. I'm like the only die-hard Warrior player I know. The perception is all Rogues and Mages
rogues are the sexiest class, not surprised most people decide they can't handle it
I wonder if people didn't want to Play the rogue because they wanted to Fuck the rogue 👀
Looking at 50% of my Dragon Age games where I played a rogue AND fucked a rogue. Heck, my go-to DA2 party was three rogues and Aveline.
I guess I'm always in those low percentages because I have a habit of playing dwarf/halfling rogues as my first playthroughs. And DA:I's rogue gameplay was more interesting than warrior, for me.
DAI was the only one I couldn't finish with a warrior, all of my Inquisitors are rogues or mages. Plus DAI's archer is the most satisfying archer of the franchise for me personally, I looooove the feel
I always play a dwarf rogue first too!
Also, in both DA:O and DA2 playing a rogue early on was important because there were some chests you couldn't open later on. Actually, it was only 1 chest in DA2, so not too much of an issue., but in Origins, you couldn't pick up a rogue companion until Ostagar (Daveth) and Lothering (Leliana).
And Daveth couldn't even pick locks and he never levels up.
Many people are replying to this with notes about how they love rogue, and me too! And also this is why when Sylvia F pitched a gentleman necromancer, I went with it despite my not-quite-phobia of corpses. Games purporting to be about choices are better when they include options I won't take.
I love that as well. The option to not choose something makes the option taking much more powerful.
Games. About. Choice. Are. Better. When. They. Include. Options. I. Won't. Take. Preach it!
I love this attitude - it reminds me of how Swen at Larian said he disliked Bards in D&D in general, but in BG3 Bards have some of the coolest interactions. Obviously a huge team and they did the work, but he didn't let that dislike filter through to the game direction!
I hope she is out there living her best life. I hope her coffee/tea is always the perfect temperature. I hope every time she puts on a sweater she finds cash inside it. 😌
Emmrich ended up being my favorite character so I really appreciate this!
But I always play a rogue. Why would anyone want to play anything different 🏹 What an odd concept.
Add more! Don’t make me wait until next game to romance Harding! And then distract me with Neve! 😆
seeing as my main rook is a rogue dwarf i am pleased neither was cut...
How dare (affectionate) you potentially remove my beloved Meliora Cadash rogue Inqy. 😀
Funnily enough, that *is* why removing the ability to play an elf or dwarf in DA2 wasn't considered a big deal at first. To a degree, having options - even ones you don't use - is considered important by a lot of players. Who knew?
Insightful commentary as always. I've always appreciated the attempts DA has done to make every choice matter no matter how few would pick it. It's refreshing to have "this is objectively a morally dubious route but here's the storyline for it" vs "you picked The Evil Option say goodbye to content"
Yessss. The amount of surprised people that get mind-blown/love it when they see the Warframe's visual novel-style IMs/chats and relationship system that culminate in the New Year's Kiss scene and how many branching conversation trees there are that cross over with different characters in it.
Hits so different when you lean into it and let it cook.
Really if they just made games like DAO for the rest of my life forever I would be happy.