A lot of leftists don't do that though. They coddle working class MAGA voters because they think that the right type of campaign will strip away their false consciousness and turn them into socialists. So yes, they hate fascist leaders but bend over backwards for the rank and file.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. We’ve got to stop infantilizing the “proletariat” bc frankly there’s a lot of illiberal bigoted nonsense coming from there
You have made this up in your head. Maybe this was like 10% true like a decade ago. But this is just not happening on any meaningful scale anywhere on this site
That's literally the concept of socialism though; is to break through the barrier of hegemony and bring class consciousness uniting people against the powerful that are subverting and hurting our society. You know the ones destroying our our planet as we speak.
You see right and left we see workers and owners.
A lot of those “workers” want to strip the civil liberties, wealth, etc from their fellow workers and I’m not sure there’s a middle ground to be found there.
Okay so two points here one some people are irredeemable and there is no changing them, they have chosen their side. Secondly so what's the alternative not to help a number of them to understand who's really harming them and how to redirect their anger at the appropriate source?
No one said irredeemable, but they can’t be indulged either.
I'm saying irredeemable they have chosen hierarchy, patriarchy, a predatory economic system, because they feel that somehow some way they benefit from those systems.
I also never said to indulge anyone. I'm not indulging racism or sexism by trying to help the conservative working class understand the predatory economic system that is harming them.
That’s fine and all, but I think a better viewpoint than workers and owners is “one coalition of nativist-oriented workers and a substantial amount of wealthy individuals and organizations” vs “everyone else who we hope makes up more than 50% of the population.” I’m not laying this at your feet but
I think we run into all these problems where “the working class and its interests” is referred to when we really mean white conservatives excluding the 1%ers.
The Socialist perspective is that the working class is made up of people who have to sell their labor in order to sustain their livelihood which is inclusive not exclusive Class solidarity is everything. If you want to imply that we're only for white people that's your bad faith interpretation.
You should help them because it's the right thing to do and maybe you'll see some political benefits, but you're not going to broadly awaken a dormant class consciousness because it doesn't actually exist
Yeah and the entire problem is that you see people that way because Marx said it was right and pointed to some Hegelian end of history, but people don't see themselves that way and most Marxist scholarship since then has been an effort to explain away everything Marx got wrong starting with Gramsci
Gramsci was a Marxist. Nobody said that Marxs was perfect and that his theory couldn't be expanded on by other intellectuals. Not even Marxs himself would say he wasn't above critique or a fuller embodiment of his concept. So I don't know what your point is here?
Because you're not expanding the theory, you're continuously changing it when it demonstrates its actual lack of predictive power. By the time you've layered all the various "it's class except for all the cases where it's not" onto Marx you get to the point where you haven't said anything at all.
Again no one said Marx's theory had to be perfect and you can clearly see we are experiencing late stage capitalism where we are consuming more than our planet can provide for us and destroying the ecosystem in the process. All for an economic system that demands perpetual growth on a finite planet.
What makes you think that's unique to capitalism? Humans have been destroying ecosystems and causing extinctions since the neolithic. The only thing that's changed is technology and scale. Plus, state socialism provides zero answers to that problem--the USSR was an ecological abomination.
Now you're just living in a fantasy world where you think that a perpetual growth economic model is going to work out on a finite planet like we aren't living the glaring flaw in that bit of nonsense, ignoring our bought out gov by the concentrated wealth of the fossil fuel industry. No words. 😬
Lol I never said any of that, I just said that capitalism wasn't innovative in that regard. You intuited the rest for absolutely no good reason
Great! So why are you making a case for capitalism then? Do you believe in the vegetarian tiger?
Even more ironically, democratic capitalism had a far better response to environmental issues than state socialism did because state socialism polluted and extracted resources with zero accountability while democratic capitalism forced government to respond to people's ecological concerns!
We were all major polluters back in the day and no one...NO ONE beats America for total historical usage of fossil fuel consumption. The major contributor to climate breakdown.
"The world's most dominant economy in the fossil fuel age has consumed the most fossil fuels" Do you have any other shocking news or statistics for me? And of course you have to talk about "historical usage" because China far exceeds the US now on current usage which you don't like
CLASS IS CENTRAL AND THE FUNDAMENTAL MOVER OF HISTORY except where it's culture, nationality, race, gender, religion, etc etc It's ridiculous because all you end up doing is describing the world as it is and applying the label of Marxism to it
i get the anger here, because yeah, voters do need a reckoning, but it's also a weird time right now because a lot of republican voters are leaving and any we can peel away is good. i wanna tell the ones in my family i told you so but they're voting against them from now on and i don't wanna (cont)
push them back because every little bit helps. also, nowhere else to go so... but meeting people where they are to talk about issues is a long standing political tactic thst has gotten results in the past