Don't be. Rest assured that the military will not stand idly by and let him attack American civilians. I'm of the opinion he's vastly underestimating the military and what they're prepared to do should his administration go too far. Denying habeas corpus to American citizens is a line too far.

They didn't disobey in Vietnam. They didn't disobey in Iraq. They haven't disobeyed yet and they're not going to suddenly grow a conscience and start disobeying now.

Oh then apparently you don't know. Yes they did disobey in Vietnam. Quite a few of them did and in Iraq We weren't given illegal orders per se unless you consider the invasion itself illegal. That's a gray area I know I was there.

I mean, I would and quite a few legal scholars around the world did, but they went anyway. The idea that the US military of all people has been in anyway a force for good except for one brief, grudging moment in the 1940s is a fiction.

I will admit Vietnam was our darkest chapter but that was in the '60s and the '70s not the '40s. In the '40s are military stood up to fascism in the '50s they stood up to communism.

Unhinged. They "stood up to communism" by sending death squads to Central America on behalf of United Fruit.

Any conflict the US engages in without a formal declaration from Congress is illegal.

In that case hold Congress accountable for failing to rein him in like they were supposed to

These are not mutually exclusive. The president fucked up. And congress fucked up. And the military fucked up. Almost like the whole thing was a disgrace from the very beginning.

Being illegally ordered to invade a foreign nation and then obeying it doesn't solely put fault on Congress.

I disagree with OP that the military is a lock to do the right thing. That said, operating on American soil would be a different level of test than any foreign conflict (no matter how unjustified). Throughout history it has been a red line for troops in all kinds of societies.

Everyone believes in their conviction before it is challenged. I'm the end, they'll all just follow orders

No they won't especially if they're conviction is to support the rule of law and the Constitution

🤬

The military and law enforcement is pro trump.

How come they're not doing it now then?

They're trying to sort out their own leadership issues. Trump appointed Hegseth deliberately to keep them disorganized. That's why Trump won't replace him. He knows they pose the biggest threat to his takeover and he knows he can't coerce their loyalty

Hope they can sort it by June 14th. Trump’s big beautiful military parade would be the perfect opportunity.

The timing would be poetic justice.

Trump did not put hegseth there for disorganization although that is obviously a side effect. He put him there because he wants the military to follow his orders lawful or not. Remember trump got rid of a lot of top brass that value the Constitution above all else.

In short Trump put him there to keep the organization off balance is like I said whether he wants loyalty above all else or not doesn't matter because Trump knows he cannot coerce loyalty in that way

The military has been drilled from boot camp that they have the duty to refuse unlawful orders. The key is that they have to receive them. Specifically. And now that they are being ordered to disappear people to torture oubliettes, their duty is to refuse those orders. Nuremberg stuff.

I’m not saying this is how it will happen. But it’s important to note that they have been told for their entire careers that they have the right and the duty to refuse illegal orders. When he orders them to attack an American city. That’s when it will really trigger, I suspect.

Do not, I repeat, do not "rest assured". These are unprescidented times.

Oh trust me I can rest assured because I also carry a big stick and I'm prepared to use it

Fingers crossed you’re right. My fear is this: the far right is FIRMLY entrenched in the military too. They’re very proud of the fact that they’ve been quietly sending members into the military for decades for training etc.

Trust me what I say military officers know what to look for this is what they're trained for. Every military officer is a college graduate. It's a requirement and most college graduates tend to lean liberal. They know their duties and they will carry them out

But it’s already happening, and the military is silent & compliant. It’d be great if they backed the courts & rule of law, but so far they haven’t.

Like I said on a different thread, the military is currently trying to work through its own leadership issues bcuz of Trump and Hegseth.

Can’t believe I’m saying this but a military coup in support of democracy would be - so so good! 😊

Trump knows that, that's why he's been so adamant about keeping the military sidelined and leaderless for as long as possible. He knows they constitute a single biggest threat to him consolidating authoritarian power.

they've fired SO much military leadership and the rank and file tend to be MAGA cultists.

Enlisted, yes. It's the officer Corp we need to look to. Enlisted can't function properly without officers to lead them. Every officer is a college graduate, it's a requirement. Many of them are West point grads and they are taught and trained to adhere to the Constitution.

That is a route to civil war.

If that's what it takes to save democracy, so be it. It's been done before to preserve democracy, we'll do it again if needed.

From my perspective it looks much more like a destruction of democracy than its preservation.

Who do you think most of the troops voted for?

Not Trump. About half of white enlisted voted for him. Why do you think GOP was trying to throw out so many military ballots all over the place?

That makes no sense. Trump isn't going to take a gun and shoot civilians himself, it's the military that would be doing the attacking, of course they aren't going to "stand by" they're going to be busy mowing down crowds. They broke the oath months ago to build concentrating camps. Non Quan Fidelis.

Didn't he already "deport" US citizen children? (Deport is in quotes because you can't deport a citizen.)

That is a gray area, having more to do with custody issues than any actual protocol. I'm not excusing it, but I am looking objectively at the situation behind it. It's one thing to deport US citizen children with their parents, it's another to deport an actual US citizen adult.

also, b/c things can come across badly online, i just want to add I really hope you're right and, given our comparative histories, you clearly know more about the military than I do. I can't go as far as to say I'm resting assured, but you make me thankful and hopeful.

ehhh....I see your point, but you say "gray area," I say "slippery slope." If you look the other way for US citizens who are removed because they are kids (esp considering the stories about parents being coerced or sick kids), where's the next line? Clearly the line's not "American civilians"

I'll concede that yes, that is a slippery slope, and it's hard to justify kids being deported, but it's also hard to justify separating families due to citizenship status. I want to believe that deporting a US citizen adult, especially for criticizing Trump, would be some kind of Rubicon.

Thanks to George W. Bush it is an ICE issue. They do that all the time. That's why ICE needs to be abolished asap.

Now this I will agree to

The 🍊 has crossed about a dozen “lines” in the last 5 months but - hopefully you’re right? 🤷🏿‍♂️

I'm not saying I'm perfect okay I'm not saying I'm right All I'm saying is right now I have faith that the military still has a major role to play and they will play it. My biggest hope is that they don't have to play it. Right now the courts are intervening once we lose them all bets are off

No don’t get me wrong I’m hoping …just like you …but I don’t have too much faith in our institutions right now. Hope you are right though.

Personally I hope we don't have to find out

You are the only person I’ve found who is also willing to say this out loud. You’ve expressed it far better than I did:

I would pray it doesn't come to that but given the failure of civilian organizations to rein him in effectively that may very well be our only recourse at this point

They already charged congresswoman LaMonica McIver with trumped up assault charges for basically doing her job. This won't take much longer ...

It is already happening with naturalized citizens who have been granted the full rights of U. S. Citizenship!