that keyboard is worth its weight in gold
that keyboard is worth its weight in gold
I have two of them, one of which i daily drive
I envy you! I use an F122 and an F77 from the ModelFKeyboards project - they're fantastic, but they aren't quite the same as a genuine IBM article
I bought mine before prices were totally absurd and I’m so glad I did
My model M just recently started acting strange, and I’m beside myself. Just when a colleague who hates the clicky noise retired, the keyboard went sideways!
I'm told model ms thrive on hate
(and hoping your keyboard reverts to normal performance!)
Haha, yes, thank you. Me too! That’s why I still have it, hoping some cleaning or something will do the trick. Got a kick out of using a keyboard older than many of my coworkers!
It did, but that person who hated the noise was my boss’ boss!
My thoughts exactly. Keyboard technology really peaked when the springs buckled
if anyone wants to get rid of their 1980s-era Model Fs please please PLEASE DM me!
Holy shit. I’ve seen live Windows 98 boxes at client sites but this beats anything I’ve encountered so far. Manufacturing is a _trip_. Usually into the distant past.
Genuinely thought for a second that said “69420 bytes available” and that your friend was pulling your leg
Nuclear missile silos were using floppy disks until 2019 www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/u...
Cassette Basic C1.1! Load "donkey.bas"
I’m sure a nontrivial number of Japanese manufacturers have something similar lurking somewhere
i mean, the zilog z80 was launched in 1976 and is still in production today because literally every embedded system runs on it
Literally?
Literally-ish :)
Yeah, the 8051 called and would seriously like to have a word...
It's ARM's world. Z-80 and 8051 just live in it.
Ahh, youngsters... ;-). In all seriousness, yes increasingly so. But don't underestimate the number of 8051 cores baked - royalty free - into everything from garage door openers to LCD controllers. ARM is expensive and ridiculous overkill in many *true* embedded apps.
They actually stopped making them last year! (Source: www.youtube.com/shorts/KEhoS...)
It's just the 40 pin DIP that's discontinued. There are still microcontrollers that are Z-80 based.
Prof in analytics program: most stuff is in a relational database. There used to be hierarchical databases, but you’ll probably never see one. Me in healthcare analytics job: 85% of health records are in (guess which EMR system), which is a hierarchical database.
that brings me back; my first real programming job was writing test code to validate CRUD operations on a proprietary hierarchical database
MUMPS space sensitive, stringly typed language that writes to the user-structured b-tree my beloved
columns are numbered, not named. security checks are adhoc code. writing a query means dipping into a pre-C language of the insane all American health data in this
Used to run tests on quartz crystal oscillators that were on their way to DoD and NASA on a 486 with the "Turbo" button. I think the test software was designed around the clock speed of the computer.
Often times it is the auxiliary hardware that is the issue. The is some calibrated doohickey attached to it that you can’t replace. Some times is the software. There is some closed source program that a company produced. Some times it’s both. I ran a lot of old computers in labs for both.
me loving the past and the future I do not need a 56k modem, or internet in general for an appliance
we only recently in the last 10 years (do not make me look up the dates) the nuclear launch machines with the chain of command for we can no longer source the parts for floppy disks and so on (we need to be able to repair stuff) and for a while this was an advantage for we had a storehouse of
backups to repair the stuff but it was security by obscurity where this stuff will always be air-gapped and you can not plug in a usb and so on it was physical even if it was also electronic
Part of the appeal may be that the old programming language has been thoroughly debugged by now and no surprises show up in that arena anymore. New tech, new bugs to work out.
30 years ago, I was hired at a bank to among other things maintain 15-year-old COBOL code that generated the magnetic tape of 1099s that was sent to the IRS. Could they still be sending 9-track tapes?
In 1990/91, I was a seasonal data transcriber for the IRS (thankfully, they quickly moved me to key verification for payments because entering 1040s was mind-numbing). I would not be surprised if the machines I used also had the same tapes. System actually worked very well from my lowly perspective.
Iirc the irs is still on the same masterfile system
So the bank that acquired the bank that acquired the one I worked for has 45 year old COBOL code hanging around.
Depends on the task and the company but we’re all windows 11 now
As it should be. If it works don't fucking touch it
But yeah definitely there should be another one
this is fine actually when the current state of the art is 'ai' shit you better keep hold of things that WORK
My experience with manufacturing usually says that these systems are (or are perceived) to be "too critical to replace". Which is of course Not how you get Resilience
This is the oldest I think I've ever seen, wow. I thought the steel industry had it bad. There are critical and less critical national security items produced on 1960s equipment w/Windows 95 on the control PC, but the PC itself is like...post 2000 lol
There is a very strong "If it ain't broke don't fix it" strain in money making enterprises.
XT?
Tests in BASIC using serial/parallel: easy to move to new hardware. Custom ISA card, custom app, no source code, company that made it is long gone: much bigger challenge. Recommendation: port to Raspberry Pi with touchscreen. Buy 50 years worth of spares! 😆
you could probably even find a GW-BASIC emulator and run the same code on the Pi
Cries in enterprise infrastructure admin There's systems at my shop that were state of the art when Reagan was in office
I wonder how easy, if at all, it is to hack that thing and bust their production line
Step 1: physical access. Step 2. Find anyone under 40 that knows PCDOS
That thing probably couldn’t even connect to today’s internet.
Yeah, that’s what I am thinking
two--two!--5.25" floppy drives!
like, to be clear here: this thing is actually running the automated tests on newly-assembled very specialized thingys (I can't say exactly what). again, people who don't work in manufacturing don't realize what it's like out here (there's a reason they still make motherboards with ISA slots...)
Until we recently deprecated it from our work flow because we could order film more cheaply than supplies, we were still using a Linotype RIP that needed files sent to it from a PowerMac G4, and the RIP itself needed a HD no larger than ~500MB and loaded software from 5 1/2 floppy drives
I showed this to my brother in law who works in energy generation and he said “I feel this more deeply than you can know”
I’m in manufacturing! This is one of the oldest systems I’ve seen in production but 40yrs old isn’t unheard kf
My brother in as does like control/it systems for power plants and everything I hear is terrifying lol
And even on the used market those manufacturing-oriented motherboards are fucking expensive. If you don’t need to do audio or video processing, you don’t need much for monitoring/watchdog. Nowadays we use microcontrollers, just a very limited CPU.
for the people asking "if it ain't broke, why mess with it": there is no replacement for this machine. if it explodes, the production goes down until they can drop in a new IBM PC from 1981.
The IBM 5150 (original PC) seems to have been made up to 1987. There's a chance it's under 40 years old 😀 FWIW, there were a lot of "very close" clones of the IBM PC back in the day, and ISA slots persisted into the 1990s. So they have options only ~30 years old. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Per...
I have one of these exact machines sitting in my parents’ basement if they need a spare. Still have the Space Invaders 5 1/4” floppy in it.
There is a large niche of highly skilled engineers who for very practical reasons prefer to use pre-Pentium intel processors because of their incredible low error rates. Most new CPUs and virtually all GPUs are next to useless for their purposes.
I used to have production machines that could only interface with a particular model of Power Mac G5 We bought every one that showed up on eBay so that we could stay in production
A variant of this: xkcd.com/2347/
Poor vision and risk management from IT (maybe not empowered) and business. Once you get above a given size these days your IT org and strategy has to be coherent and pretty solid. Always a challenge
Hell yeah! Looks like an original 8088! Upgraded maybe to a 10 MB HDD. All integer calcs. No numeric coprocessor
Chatted with the guy tonight. Coprocessor but no HDD.
So they're saying they boot from floppy each day to run this? Omg! This is real.old school!!
Yeah, HDD would have died ages ago. I'm not even sure if those things had fans. Without an HDD, that computer might not have any moving parts outside of the floppy drive.
Yeah but there’s a post it next to the power point that says DO NOT UNPLUG. It’s fine
NASA used to send people to flea markets to find replacement computer parts for the space shuttle.
You need some Ukrainian Engineers to fix and reverse model it.
I think there was an article about starting up the old Stinger production line because of Ukraine, and they had to go hunt down retirees and throw money at them because half of it was very specialize manual labor no one had done for years.
That thing hasn't died in nearly 45 years. If the capacitors hold up it'll be fine.
I have great news for you about how financial infrastructure works.
One of my stories is about a little-noticed Sun SPARC 10 that was shoved in an empty cubicle and quietly maintained about a third of American corporate Internet access, and that the only source code for it existed as several hundred pages of printouts with handwritten annotations.
(Amongst other things, the box was officially listed as an employee, because the department that owned it was too terrified to either move it onto a different network or place it in a data center where they couldn’t get immediate access to it, so it had to have a cubicle permanently assigned to it.)
Tons of stuff in the Bloomberg terminal is still Fortran 77
Which I might remind you all is a language that automatically treats everything after the 72nd character on a line as a comment
given how much time and effort has been wasted bikeshedding line length lint rules, this was an enlightened decision
One might think so until one has a bug from a line ending “* 100”
Ain't no company that wants to invest in infrastructure! Let alone *financial* infrastructure! That's what governments are for, and then they privatize it!
I know someone in the COBOL trenches at ADP. She has seen horrors beyond comprehension
I started my career in bank audit and I have truly been scared
I find it hilarious that crypto bros want to make all transactions immutable
It is hilarious for many reasons, but my favorite one is "so are you a scammer or a mark?".
About a decade ago I was brought in as part of a team to help a very large bank determine the source of a persistent error. It took 20 employees and 20 consultants 3 days to solve the problem.
Thousand man-hours of labor ain’t bad for a legacy system…
LOAD 👏 BEARING 👏 SPREADSHEET 👏
You bet. Excel 97.
It’s far worse than that I’m afraid.
Had a similar system at where I work that literally had one job of being able to access the very bespoke admin console of an 80s mainframe, and the only reason we were able to retire it was someone took the initiative to create a Java emulator - green screen UI and everything else - to replace it
or until they spend $5m++ porting it to a new machine
It's not on the internet, so it can't be broken into. The software is simple and reliable. There's a moral.
Nods. Secure as hell. There are times when I really want my old DOS machine with WP 5.1 for certain things...especially since I can then scrutinize the root directory WITH WORD PERFECT.
That piece ain't ever gonna die
Loved those keyboards!
stil daily my model M
as it turns out there's another, second bathtub curve after the first one but it's sloped
I have a box with new 8” Verbatim floppy disks in case your nuclear launch system needs them.
Honest question, is it because the owners are too cheap to upgrade? The margins too thin? Or is it that when it comes time to replace the plant they are just going to do it in another country?
The code might be written in 8088 assembly language or in a version of BASIC or C or Fortran that doesn't run on anything else. Or as someone else suggested in this thread, the computer may interface with hardware using cards that only work on this kind of machine, and require custom programming.
I don't know how it is now, but back then external device interfaces could be nasty. Change a bit there, another one over there, etc. Didn't make much sense, and the documentation could be horrible. Summary: Switching to something more modern might be a lot of work, and few people know enough.
As a programmer I feel a little responsible.
Load bearing Windows 5.1 (I worked for a mfg'r that had an inventory system dating to the 80's that required an emulator to access and had, I shit you not, 1k entries that were just 'bolt' without any other information)
who else up inventorying their BOLT
what’s up gamers? today we’re gonna be grinding out some cool inventory strats and BOLTing on the noobs
I imagine they've got a few backup machines, sourced from eBay or old company liquidations.
yeah they'd be fools not to have a few of these (and parts) in the basement, but like,....
Heck, just go to school district supply liquidations! I was doing a LOT with ancient tech eleven years ago....
100% but also...I don't think this situation is unusual 😭
oh it's common, it's just wild to see it
Oh wow, I used to play Ultima on this exact set up!
Surely you could emulate this on, like, a fraction of a Raspberry Pi?
Thought the same thing. A VM running the version of OS. There are ways.
VMs generally have a lot of trouble with the low level hardware access that industrial systems require
Bigger tech challenge is probably finding adapters from your modern computer to the old tech, but I’m sure it’s been done.
Many such cases. I write an engineering reports regularly that say “you don’t have to replace this piece of esoteric electronics now because it works right now, but if you don’t and it breaks your [x] won’t work until you install a whole new system and that will take months”
Of course the reports are rarely heeded but at least the operators have prices of paper to shake at their bosses when [x] is down for months.
Do they have 5.25" floppy disk backups?
institutional knowledge + single point of failure = job security
the antiquated underpinning of far more than people realize somewhere right now there's someone still using a dial-up connection to prop up one small function who has the fate of the whole world in their hands
just going off my gut, modems over analog phone lines support around 15% of intra- and inter- plant communications
there's a big push to go to 4g/LTE for this right now, including private 5gNR low band deployments, because the parts to keep POTS going are becoming scarse
err, 5gIOT (too many acronyms rattling around in here)
I really enjoyed this video and I think it was eye opening to most who watch it youtu.be/3ZTGwcHQfLY?...
Radiology labs too. My father had two pallet crates of these PCs in the garage for emergency client runs… should tell him to ask at the next retiree meeting if anyone still has any.
I bought my first PC in 1990, and it had 1 3.5 drive and 1 5.25. 2 5.25s has got to be closer to 1985.
And thinking this thru, that means it’s gotta be running DOS not Windows
it's running IBM BASIC, as you can see on the screen
I have a Pentium 4 machine running Win98 that *should* be able to deal with PC BASIC unless doing special calls to 16-bit memory. I should send them an offer lol.
Sorry, couldn't see the screen on my phone. Damn.
If you play with very old digicams, the kind where your storage medium is still measured in megabytes, you’re competing with machine tool operators for Compact Flash cards…
Hey I’ve got a win98 hobby box and need some of those too! (Fastest that machine has ever booted….)
You are tempting me into dragging out an ancient P2-ish tower to do nothing but play Diablo and US Navy Fighters…
Janes ATF tho...
We spent so many weekends with the VarkLib mods in Jane’s USN Fighters Gold. I’d finally go to sleep on Sunday afternoon hearing the tone of a Sidewinder getting lock echoing in my head…
Okay, hit me, what is an ISA card you would need to be able to plug into a new motherboard
Most of it is the custom or semi custom hardware interfaces for a bespoke bit of manufacturing equipment
This is also GRRM’s set up.
I thought he was a Mac guy?
He has an early 90’s PC he writes or wrote on. Don’t know if he still does or if it crashed and took all his drafts with it.
If it still works.... don't fuck with it. Also the more niche the use the more likely you see really old stuff being used.
New custom hardware is crazy expensive and having it work with your existing systems is spotty at best. For an air gapped system that works, let it work until it doesn’t.
and then you can generally component level repair it because it hasn't suffered the absolute financialised rotting out of the past 30 years in tech
Oh my, I had one of those in 1983 - had 2 5 1/4 discs for storage
At first I imagined that someone slapped the IBM logo on a Tandy color monitor.
When you absolutely, positively got to C:\> every motherboard in the room
When I walked through this company’s factory they had a few of those black & green monitors with one of those floppy drives with the big actually-floppy disks bsky.app/profile/saba...
Until very recently I was keeping an OKIdata triple-ply printer working for a finance office in a small car shop.
Anyone who works even tangentially close to IT during the end of life of an operating system (windows xp personally) has horror stories of trying to manage computers connected to decades old, million plus dollar equipment with no future compatible firmware or communication drivers.
if it functional and works and gives you the data you need why change!!!
Because it's way past end-of-life support. If anything goes wrong with that computer they're completely fucked. This is why other businesses upgrade their computer systems regularly!
They support it locally. I imagine they have a plan
Besides all the other fucked up shit about this, I wouldn’t touch keyboard without a hazmat suit on.
I can hear that booting up and the drive chug chugging!
Well. It’s secure. It’s airgapped. It works. I get what you’re saying but it’s a fantastic security measure
Can’t hack into something not connected to the internet..😆.
I have some experience in pharma factories. Every change (to either hardware or software) requires intensive documentation and testing. I recently saw a machine on a factory floor running Windows XP because the hardware it was driving could not be replaced.
no AI… 🤷🏾♂️
👆 this is going to become very very important
If it works, why mess with it
this isn't uncommon – not just in america – and as ancient legacy systems go this one is one of the easier to maintain or replace. you would not believe the awful old crap that runs older factory automation systems. computing is just another thing you install once and forget it exists.
Heh. Go to some school districts....
i work in manufacturing lol
my mistake, i did not realize you were already familiar with the accursed horrors : )