What to do about it is an extremely hard question. Anyone offering simple fixes is probably a grifter. That's the part of the critique of the "misinformation industrial complex" I think is valid. But the viral spread of lies tailored to each user's basest instincts and biases is real & corrosive.
"The price of free speech, is unpopular speech." This goes equally well when applied to lies and misinformation. It is a real issue, and IMO is exactly what Putin was talking about when back in 2015 he spoke of his secret weapon against the west. He was speaking of social media.
There have been various efforts to address this issue, snopes.com in a good example, as is ground news. But the fact of the matter, is that there is an effective firewall between officials of both major parties and those of their constituents who align with the opposing party.
Even within the so called legacy news agencies. Each reaches a target audience and tailors the narrative of each story to support their own political bias. The system we setup at the founding of our nation is now used to subvert the very idea we sought to protect. Free political expression.
There are things that could be done given sufficient political capital and will. For instance we could outlaw any politician from 'buying' ads on legacy or social media during campaigns. Instead requiring them to utilize services such as YouTube to disseminate their messaging.
This would ensure equal access to all candidates for air time. Further we could require that any media outlet if they want to interview a candidate they must give equal air time to each and every candidate running. Helping to break some of the firewall effect.
Ranked voting on a national scale such as what they do in Alaska would drastically change the tenor of campaign messaging. As each candidate then has an interest in not alienating the other side as those votes could ultimately benefit them. Big step in depolarizing our national politics.
But the problem goes deeper than this. We have a fundamental issue in our legislature. Each vote on a bill is a winner take all proposition. This creates an enormous pressure to be the party in control of each chamber of congress. Compounding this is the willingness of party leads to
deny a vote to bills sponsored by the party in opposition even when those bills likely have sufficient votes to pass. I say the solution lay in making votes harder, not easier. Add to the requirement of simple majority to pass a bill. To instead also require that both major parties...
Must also yield up a simple majority within their caucus. This would empower the party in the minority ensuring that their priorities have the same weight as that of the majority. And it could be done without special procedural process such as the filibuster.
Teach people to actually talk to each other.
have lectures and other things people can go to to learn things (like this sounds incredibly nerdy but it doesn't have to be).
It could start with the media quitting the habit of basically repeating the lies of the disinfo peddlers as the leads of their coverage. The story is not what Musk, Trump, et al. are saying; it’s that they’re lying in service of an agenda.
Have you ever looked at the comments of obviously staged shorts on YouTube or Facebook? The majority of people think they’re real. Horrendous acting, questionable circumstances, the glaring question of why someone happened to be there with a camera recording — not questioned by most people.
Has anyone looked into the micro targeting algorithm? Maybe developers should look at making programs that detect and attack the algorithms that spread the misinformation. If they can’t spread it, the damage will be less
Yes - and money drives the misinformation
Clicked on your profile and it says "writes about tech for the Washington Post". Written anything critical of Amazon recently? I don't think it's social media driving misinformation, it's the oligarchical press that does the most to degrade discourse. As it always has been
I think we need teach ins. More times people can just go to lectures etc. to learn stuff locally, not just listen to podcasts or consume social media. But that doesn't fix it at a big systemic level of billionaires and huge corporations owning media companies in the entire nation. Yea I know.
Sometimes you can't do anything, in the way that sometimes, you try to cure a cancer and it still kills the patient. This may be human civilization finally hitting its end of days and dying with a whimper of a bang.
What if we flipped the script? Anonymity shouldn’t license harm but protect the vulnerable. What are we protecting—and at what cost?
When misinformation thrives, it’s because platforms prioritize engagement over accountability, and the collective we, the users, indulge our worst instincts without consequence.
It takes a lot of education to stand up to these levels of propaganda. And even then this may not be enough. Have been shocked to see some of my educated, supposedly progressive friends buy into some of it when they slide into being "low information" types. Which people r going to do more and more.
The source of the lies is pretty clear Russian troll farms and right wing media grifters. They needed going after, but in the current political environment I wouldn't expect the federal government to go after them at all
I still wouldn't say "driving" because there have ALWAYS been false narratives used and planted since well before the US was a country. But I do agree the information a/b testing that social media affords is a game change. 2 further points: 1st is due to @olivermmarsh.bsky.social 1/
1) it isn't deepfakes / AI / disinfo that's the problem – Russia &al. amplify narratives from legitimate sources that best serve their purposes. 2) not everyone RTs extremism, but a/b testing helps plant sharply weaponised stories to surf the waves of those affectively polarised people who do. 2/2
Yes, I'm not going to argue misinfo isn't a problem but I think the focus on "untrue" rather than "damaging irrespective of how true it is" isn't the right focus. A great (if old) piece on this demos.co.uk/research/war...
and fwiw I do think the focus on misinfo/disinfo was disproportionate relative to hate speech / polarisation, especially around 2016-2019, and just after chatgpt launch. Though the dismissal of misinfo is now going too far other way
We can do quite a lot about it. Our organization exists to address it, and if enough of us work together actively there, we can make it better. We can’t fix it, but we can make the dis/mis/information and bigotry substantially less powerful. Please join us! www.dangerousspeech.org/counter-spee...
I think constantly calling attention to it and pointing out "This is bullshit, don't believe it" is one way of doing it. We should be doing this to everything Trump and Musk have to say, too.
That fact that people’s news feed is tailored for them is part of the issue no? Some don’t see half as much. That said I’m glad it’s changing - some things fall foul of “fact checkers” and censorship when really the issue is some things are unevidenced.
We need to get rid of corporate media, restructure politics to get rid of money, and similarly strip political parties of power. Simple in theory, not in execution.
IMHO, the long, slow, and unsexy answer is in having more robust k-12 education which encourages critical thinking for a digital age.
And making sure that education is evenly distributed.
Teachers, librarians, poll workers have all been targeted by this Coup. It will get worse. Media needs to accept its responsibility or it no longer deserves 1A protections.
The fact that our major newspapers are complicit because everything’s owned by the same 5 oligarchs is depressing. It means certain doom. Truth & Democracy & Law&Order are all circling the drain in 🇺🇸 & the media keeps flushing & flushing & flushing. State-run oligarchy “news” is months away
100%
My belief is that the capitalist profit motive is heart of the problem. Divisive and offensive media sells and thus algorithms promote it. Nuanced views are less entertaining. Hence we need media platforms built up to promote nuanced and truth over offensive lies and disinformation.
We had national broadcasters here in Europe like the BBC or NRK here in Norway. We have non-profit newspapers like the Guardian. For a long time they helped keep the balance. Social media lacks this as it is built on American capitalist ideals. We need non-profit social media platforms.
But it is not enough for some geeks to start them. They need serious funding and some form of preferential treatment to gain enough size and momentum to challenge the for-profit alternatives. Democratic governments need to step up ans support it.
Definitely. The Truth doesn't work, as Disinformation isn't as much about the lie but how the lie is formed and delivered. There are many disinformation tactics out there, but nobody ever said you couldn't use the same tactics with the truth. Easier said than done, admittedly.
I see your point. Relatedly @himself.bsky.social points to the harder problem being platforms as degrading democratic publics with distorted information flows which leads to problematic beliefs about others beliefs rather than just individuals getting bad data inputted into their brains.
This is a very good article. Reminded me of Society of the Spectacle.
Although assuming the election was legit, a lot of voters have genuinely bad beliefs!!! No real way around that one.
Anonymity and misinformation aren’t just individual problems—they’re systemic. Social media isn’t just inputting bad data; it’s warping the structure of democratic discourse. What if the real issue isn’t the lies we see, but the way platforms distort our ability to see each other?
Spot on.
100% this ☝🏼
I don't always agree with Johnathan Haidt, but this is an excellent article about how we got here. www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc...
Excellent and thought provoking article!
Oh, this is good.
Thank you for this!!
Absolutely.
So true. I don’t believe those of us opposed to this rhetoric are in the minority. Xitter and FB have more bots and paid trolls spreading their lies with staged and manufactured disinformation and Russian propaganda and they’re causing violence offline - these radicalized people are in the minority
you're still trying to blame the Russians for the things American billionaires are doing?
It’s not binary. Do you not believe donald is Putin’s puppet?? Russia sent propaganda immediately spoken by magats. They sent a false witness against Biden. They sent bomb threats to Black neighborhoods during Election Day
Bingo. Most of us would never say the things to a person in front of us that we say to others online. I’m guilty of it.
Nailed it. Thank you.
Well said!
Have you tried doing anything to address the concerns of normal people instead of gaslighting them and calling them racist?
Are you referring to me specifically, or broader trends in how these issues are discussed? I’d love to clarify my stance if it helps the conversation move forward.
Broader sense. Any sort of legitimate concern about immigration is usually slandered as far right, which has ended up fueling the actual far right.
Thank you for clarifying. I agree that ignoring legitimate concerns can lead to backlash and polarization. How can we promote discussions that tackle real issues without amplifying extremist narratives?
why do you assume people like you are "normal"? You're loading the dice
All the most vile shit I've seen is from people with names and faces out.
That's what you've experienced. I've experienced both. Either way it encourages bad faith.
🎯 youtu.be/gAObqEu_tbg?...
Thanks for sharing this. I’ll watch it to better understand your perspective. What part of the video do you feel is most relevant to our conversation?
The whole thing, really. It’s short. Social media is distorting our realities through algorithmic feedback loops. It also amplifies divisiveness and the separation of ‘us & them.’ His is the voice I have found the most relevant post-election, fwiw.
I guess this is nicer to believe than “49% of Americans are bigots”, but I’m not convinced.
Fair.
isolation amplifies propaganda results
The 2024 election was decided on social media. I don’t know how the Dems have any hope for future elections.
I do think this is part of the problem.
It's not unlike a mental illness, where inputs are distorted by the brain trying to process information. In both cases, we move away from reality.
It would be Horrible for vulnerable people so I fear it's a non starter but I often wonder if social media required identifying info in user profiles so you could trace posts to the humans who posted them (and readily identify bots) would be a net positive for society.
The challenge: how do we design systems that balance accountability and protection? Can we imagine platforms that incentivize truth without exposing risk?
Bluesky is already trying to implement the solution: Have users bring their own identity. Bluesky only creates user identities because it must until decentralized identifiers (DIDs) become common. substack.com/home/post/p-...
Very true. I find myself hating Trump supporters when a lot of them just have a distorted reality. On the other hand I wouldn’t want to go to Texas and be labeled a Democrat in front of people I don’t know because their misinformation complex would ascribe all kinds of horrible things to me.
So many words to say almost nothing. I prefer to get it in a nutshell; misinformation is corrupting how people understand what’s going on in the world. Trump is making it worse.
It's not misinformation. It's the faux community in which people pretend to do something real by discussing major events over which they have no influence. It's the online version of voting and national politics in the US.
nothing wrong with disgusting major events. I’m so sick of the no politics here format.
He's actually saying the opposite of how you've summarised it, if anything.
We need to start in school. I didn't get the information about how important voting is until I went to college. Maybe that's because I'm from Missouri, but once I learned the importance, I never slacked off on knowing what I'm voting for.
I agree. www.theatlantic.com/technology/a...
Democracy had known shortcomings going back to Socrates. Not sure how you stop lying on platforms. Imagine most of us have shared something partial true or misrepresented at some point. ? is the person being malicious with information. www.worldhistory.org/video/1223/w...
It seems to me that we’ve pretty much lost the disinformation war. Half the public is low key brainwashed. I was watching Jimmy Carter’s funeral and wishing we could be decent again, if we ever really were. My heart is broken but I have zero ideas on the fix(es).
Ironically, my original post has blown up to a degree that risks giving it more weight than it was built to bear. Like most social media posts, it was a distillation of a feeling, tossed off in a moment. I'd encourage folks to consider it alongside the context and counterpoints others have posted.
Exactly. That is why having good filtering abilities is critical.
It's a straightforward and correct statement
It basically contains all the elements that explains why Trump is president again.
I really appreciate your insight and ability to think critically with nuance. I have been shadow banned on FB because I must have had a secret right winger or something that would turn me in for disinformation when I would post something sarcastic
One of those steps needs to be real punishments for deliberately printing/spreading outright falsehoods or portraying opinion as fact. It's a positive minefield to truly tackle the issue but there are steps along the way. Steps we should have already taken. IMHO
Realized I didn't close the loop on "ironically." The irony, to me, is that my post probably spread so far in part *because* it's an oversimplification, crafted in a way that elicits righteous anger, assigns blame to a nebulous outgroup (the "savvy"), and cites no sources — all hallmarks of misinfo.
You’re giving a well- thought iut idea. Putting words to a phenomenon we al see. You don’t need citations.
If you have not read or seen Carole Cadwalladr she makes a very similar point about misinformation and politics. This TedTalk is from a few years ago, but is certainly relevant now, or more so: www.google.com/url?q=https:...
Probably. But we, as scientists and journalists, need to find a way to communicate reality in ways that audiences can understand. Distilling complex content into digestible pieces (building blocks for better understandings) is a skill we all need to learn right quick.
Perhaps a lesson can be learned on content length. Industry Producers in mainstream media insist on brevity, falsely believing that audiences will not consume long form. But podcasting and youtube belies that folk belief about audience preference. It’s about removing the fourth wall, not word length
Create a “truth rabbit hole” where the intrinsic incentive is to go deeper and deeper into truth. This is highly motivating. Linking networks of experts and content where debunking falsehoods and showing how to weight arguments properly is a badge of honour - the converse of the QAnon-universe.
yep OP has frequently referenced and described these participatory media ecologies as crucial characteristics
Referring to other trusted sources within content, letting users “find the truth” on their own and building a whole ecosystem where real journalists and experts regain the trust they once had by opening doors (rather than holding users by the hand) can work wonders for building buy-in
Be the “guide on the side” rather than the condescending parent
of course the meta topic here is that the “twitter ux” and its grammars of brevity and engagement baiting also impede on our communications as much as facilitate them
To my mind this misses the point a bit. The VOLUME of messaging from algorithms is designed to “flood the zone” and drown out other messages. Add to that the ability to microtarget and we have given enormous power to plutocrats like Musk whose wild tweets get quoted verbatim.
Well those who know my work would know that that would be something for which I take for granted at this point. 😝
Looking forward to exploring it more. Bluesky can sometimes be a million people having 10 million conversations at slightly crossed purposes.
That's what the org I'm working for is striving to do. News that everyone can read and understand. If anyone is interested, check us out! @equalaccesspublicmedia.org
Also need to build a broader bench of messengers that reach into the influence economy
bsky.app/profile/gohs... Cite to Jiore Craig 👇🏼
I think i agree with this nuanced article: bsky.app/profile/torr...
Please consider joining our group there to address this. (And please answer the questions when you do.) www.dangerousspeech.org/counter-spee...
Can't take a W, can you?
Thank you for modeling good and thoughtful social media hygiene (for want of a better word).
Totally agree. These are the kind of posts i want to follow, not the excitable vitriol that others anyone & divides us more. Recent discussion of Jimmy Carter's life & outlook has re-enforced this thought for me, so even more timely
It's worth noting that the Dem's loss in November was largely driven by something the Repubs didn't need to lie about: inflation. Indeed it was the Harris campaign lying in that instance, and it was a pretty blatant and dumb lie ("it's just price gouging, we can fix it with this new law")
📌
You’re 100% correct. Lies, misinformation and disinformation won the 2024 election. Probably the 2016 election too. I was stunned by the lies people believed even back then.
While I don’t doubt it made some difference, putting too much weight on misinformation as a factor shields us from the reality that a lot of people simply just like the racist, sexist bully because he’s a racist, sexist bully.
the whole racist anti DEI, Anti-woke agenda is built on misinformation. but you’re not wrong, imo.
Totally agree it’s built on misinformation, at the same time racists will find a way to be racist with any given set of facts (or non-facts, as the case may be)
God damn that's a sane way to frame a thread. I'm literally putting a pin in this, so I can quote it the next time one of my casual 300char posts accumulates a small article's worth of replies 📌
I feel like a lot of us aren't saying "it's not a problem" but rather "we have a deeper problem of which this is a symptom." We need a huge ecosystem of both leaders and followers to change their basic orientation & become more interested in whether things are true. bsky.app/profile/fish...
The first step would be to acknowledge the addressible market for claims is actually far larger than the addressible market for information. Thus, expecting an ungoverned internet to act as an information repository vs a claims repository is a key problem.
If we replace ungoverned internet by social advertising marketplace that relies on maximizing eyeballs, we are swapping po-tay-to for po-tah-to. Only if the place of expression gains value from information instead of claims, would you have the necessary precursor for good curation of information.
I think what makes it difficult to combat this is that in order to do so, a large number of people have to stop engaging in things that make them feel good. The only way it goes away within the current structure of social media platforms is if people don’t engage. And engaging feels good to them.
bsky.app/profile/colu... Such an important problem. The clearest (but not nearly complete) answer I've come across is in 👇🏼
open.spotify.com/episode/5xs3... The discussion of lifestyle influencers at the end of this interview is also super relevant to the *how*
agreed. I'm not too worked up about Zuck's recent decision, only because what he had didn't really work anyway, but we need something that actually does
its built off of decades of R&D from capitalist marketing & corporate PR. remember seeing a figure of how many PR professionals exist for every journalist, and the ratio heavily leaning PR was a sign of terminal disease
I’ve been plugging this book so much I feel like an unofficial press agent. But unique information silos are one of the big warning signs.
Hitler's lies drove Germany's politics and we know how that went.
the US hired the alumni and it ended up taking over the US?
Question:"what exercise can I do to target my beer belly fat" Answer= you can't! Quit drinking alcohol! Question: "How do we target change in society on this one issue" Answer= You can't! Quit living in a society where people value ideological wins more than marginal benefits/progress.
Kris Goldsmith of Task Force Butler has some good insights on this.He recently did a Youtube video w/ Meidas Touch & talked about what can be done.He has ideas to tax and penalize the crap out of these platforms that dont patrol for this type of information comparing to the oil &cigarette companies.
youtu.be/-l-Icyn2F_0?...
This is the video with Kris. He is a standup guy and has an extremely interesting background. Typically the last line of defense before a country becomes fully fascist is the military and people like Kris are the ones who can literally safe a country if it comes down to it.
I agree, I can read the news, then look at my daughter news and it is completely the opposite.
It’s intentional.
It should be called the “disinformation industrial complex”.
Much the same way LLMs break down as their diet increasingly consists if their own output, our socialized brains do as we are increasingly fed our own biases and beliefs, a deranging feedback loop of limited information and experience. bsky.app/profile/edwa...
Also not helped by the fact that anyone in a realistic position to combat it is either directly profiting from it or has a general response of "fuck you got mine" to the slightest notion of doing anything that could benefit others.
And successful because of the rise of social media.
🇨🇦 is not immune. I’ve voted 50 yrs, but since COVID I’ve never witnessed such a nonstop barrage of really vile RW propaganda. Bots churning out wild hyperbole. Heard over & over, it will sway voters. The only mitigation, 🇨🇦 reflects 🇬🇧 religiosity, half that of 🇺🇸, so smaller evangelical vote #cdnpoli
Oh, well, that's easy. Abrogate the 1st Amendment in these cases and gag the liars for dangerous speech under criminal penalties, in exactly the same way society condemns and penalizes those who shout "fire" in a crowded theater.
Who on the Left?
Start teaching critical thinking skills in school again, people have stopped independent cognition and just run with the pack...group think is the worst dynamic there is!