If you want to actually solve the problem, instead of punishing itch, start calling payment cos Collective Shout, which is run by people who get published by Spinifex, a very terf-seeming organization, apparently needed 1,000 people to yell at visa to get this done. We got more than 1000 people.
The angry comments blaming Itch are exactly why customer service employees always talk like therapists. It doesn't matter who's truly at fault — if you're in range of an angry customer, you're in firing range. Source: I had to work customer service for a company that had a payment processor.
I'm still mad at itch for handling it the way they did tho
likely were presented with a court order and are keeping quiet (as they should, legally). it sucks either side here
Thanks, man. I really appreciate this.
I mean, it's just the logical thing to be doing
Yeah, but doing what I do it can get rough feeling like no one cares or will ever stick up for you because you're unclean or unimportant. It starts to weigh you down. So seeing people talking about it and trying to change it goes a long, long way.
CS isn't TERF-seeming they are a TERF group who is not only anti-sex but also anti- queer too. They've called trans folks are a result of porn-addiction and followed people and politicians like Nancy Mace who are vocal anti-LGBTQ+ and are allied with other puritanical religous groups as well
A radfem group is full of terfs?
Holy shit wow
More info about the CS group btw from a now deleted article: archive.is/vEWGH
archive.is/LDJGe
One of their campaigns managers supports Nancy Mace, a US politician who calls Queer people "Groomers and Pedos". CS's allies are religious groups like NCOSE and Exodus Cry who are both anti-sex and anti-queer and who are lobbying against LGBTQ rights like same-sex marriages...
CS also believes Trans people are a result of men getting "porn-addicted". Don't let these people win cause they will not only remove sex-games and also potentially queer games too.
itch chooses to comply with this processor, I'm betting it's Stripes, rather than switch to another. Visa is claiming that it's not them, see the meeting with Yamada Taro.
'chooses' there is no choice when it comes to payment processing stripe is the one itch has told us (after my post went up) was the biggest fight
Of course there is a choice when it comes to payment processor. Like why are they using Stripe anyways when Stripe is famously anti-NSFW? Why not Bankful, or Segpay, or Authorize .net? Itch wanted lower transaction fees and now it's biting them (and me) in the ass.
itch literally delisted free games for having the word "trans" somewhere... do payment processors have anything to do with this? of course not, itch.io is as complicit as visa or mastercard are in this.
CS also uses the TERF dog-whistle "women and girls" a lot in their statements. You wouldn't think something that innocuous could become a dog-whistle, but it has.
bsky.app/profile/docs...
Doesn't the leader think women shouldn't have big breasts without implants? And isn't one of the things they ban any depiction of menstruation?
Damn that's some insane stuff I hadn't heard about. Do you have any sources? Not that I don't believe you I just wanna hear about that complete train wreck. I bet she'd be real mad at me for being a trans woman with natural 22E cups :)
I've read it somewhere in passing. But I think Mastercard put up the ban list in a tweet or something.
Never mind, the list was just some shitty AI art site stating their policies in light of the payment thingamajig. Not that they should be payed in the first place.
The founder seems to be a far-right Christian, did a lil digging due to flimsy accusations going around linking them to some South Korean group, and whilst didn't find anything supporting that did find other stuff.
I still don't get how freaking Jesus's "love thy neighbour" Christ became the mascot for the far right "I'd kill the gays if I could" cults.
Because it is the most prominent religion in the West. Suspect the whole linking Collective Shout to the South Korean online community WOMAD, though, is the responsibility of Far Right grifters on YouTube, and now leftists are just spreading it like gospel cause it popped up on the Itchio discord.
Or maybe she's a fake "Christian," who's "Christian" in name only because she defends Cuties. She's a hypocrite and she shows fake hatred towards that "movie."
A lot of Christians are Christian in name only. Wanted to play "Christianity Puritanism" would say only Biblical Scholars are true Christians.
And real Christians are against Collective Shout. Look at KittyAngel. She's against Collective Shout if she's against internet censorship.
I know. And the Bible warned us about fake "Christians" like Collective Shout.
Malinda Tankard Reist seems to have been the advisor of former independent senator Brian Harradine, founder of the far right think tank Women's Forum Australia, co-founder of Collective Shout and has spoken at Baptist Church events such as this one in 2023.
On the same level as "won't someone think of the children" in boding nothing good for the people they're supposedly trying to protect.
Yeah I'm absolutely livid about creeping fascist censorship, but the culprits are very clear here. Focusing on the wrong target will only make things worse.
Might get flack for this, but AFAIK the Steam takedowns were all rape/incest/child abuse games & they've yet to take down a high-profile release for presenting sensual themes, having queer characters, etc. Concern trolling @ its finest. So I'll ask: have any of the Itch takedowns differed from this?
I REALLY don't want to sustain another Gamergate/Sweet Baby Inc. moral panic. (And before anyone asks, I already signed!)
Im my case even if they do I backed up my games on another site. Though Ive been meaning to do that anyway.
I've begun doing this myself when it comes to adult content elsewhere. Globally, it seems the parties of individualism & sml. gov.'t have no issue w/ a corporate nanny state.
This is about itch not Steam and itch took a much more drastic position beyond things of that subject matter and broadened the effect to almost anything adult or erotic and delisting anything deemed adult essentially where it is not allowed to be searched.
not much to add here, but i'd like to add they are not just terf-seeming. many of the organization that took part in this are openly transphobic, homophobic, inherently anti sexwork and some complete nutjobs with direct ties to beliefs like wifi as a serious danger to health or that sex ed is bad.
These aren't feminists - that would imply they advocate for women's sexual autonomy. They're conservative moral guardians - further sex as taboo w/ an unachievable goal. Wolves in sheep's clothing. SWERF & TERF.
meanwhile rightwingers blaming trans people for this censorship (yes really)
thx for the good plan op 👍
I think that a bunch of queers saw that itch couldn’t pay out queer creatives in the middle of the night and saw red. If you have a more nuanced take, I think it would stand on its own without needing to frame it against a bunch of angry trannys letting their blood boil
He's been concern trolling and tone policing queers all day, hes a piece of shit, dont listen to him
Like yeah obviously this is because of pressure from payment processors nobody's denying that but itch handled this extremely poorly at a time when our lives are at greater more existential threat than ever before, the paternalist nonsense is not welcome in the slightest
it's an absolutely terrible thing to be doing, but why go after people who have historically been super good about this stuff because they got blindsided by something? why not go after the people doing the harm? why target other victims of this mess?
Because itch folded like a cheap suit instead of doing literally anything else. The push happened at 10 PM US Eastern because they didn't want anyone to notice. Coward shit. Nobody is saying its all itch's fault but itch hanging queer creators out to dry is horrendous
the push happening at 8PM PST (they're based there) + the fact the statement came out later both make it look like itch found out and was told they had a matter of hours to do this or die completely. what else could they have done?
I severely doubt they had "mere hours" to process this. Im not litigating this shit with you. Im going to listen to the folks whose livelihoods are actually jeopardized instead
you mean like the people at itch, whose lives are also jeopardized?
Don't you have a pair of Tim Sweeney's loafers to tongue-polish, you corporate stooge?
I've quite literally talked at length about how Tim Sweeney is an idealist who doesn't seem capable of understanding the idea that bad actors exist and that bites him in the ass.
aren't you the person whose first response to me today was homophobia in response to me having a conversation asking someone for clarification on something?
Im a gay tranny idiot
Also im not a person
1 can u not use the term trannys that's super transphobic and offensive they are terfs or right wingers not trans
I’m literally trans. I can say tranny whenever I want to
I see well I respect that if u don't find it offensive to each there own
What?
?? I'm just replying to people who are replying to me I did try to take the most common stuff I've been hearing and collate them + responses I want to beat this and help itch getting back to hosting this content, so I want to target the people responsible, you know? bsky.app/profile/docs...
I got a lot of vitriol directed at me after I posted in anger in the middle of the night, so I’m coming from the place of that was kind of rough. I think you’re a real one and I’m not coming from a place of anger at you. I just dislike the “don’t get mad incorrectly” vibe I’ve seen all morning
hey, you don't deserve any anger at all. and I get the anxiety. I'm trying to help people get through it the only way I know how, which is explaining the cause and effect of it all so people can direct their anger productively at the ones who deserve it.
And I see that in your post. My issue was that I felt some of the tone in the responses I’ve seen being “this is misinformation” grated against my personal experience of another space for queer content was nuked and I had a panic attack. I don’t think anyone is trying to spread misinformation
I think it’s natural that my initial reaction was fuck itch. Even if that wasn’t nuanced, I watched a service I used for the purposes of engaging with trans creators betray me. Maybe they had no option, but people’s anger comes from their hearts
I've always known them to be good and supportive people. If they did something like this--and the press release _after_ the change (which is unusual), which was happening well into the evening last night (which is unusual)--reads like "they had a gun to their head" we're in this together with them
And experiences I’ve had have taught me that no corporation can be trusted. I’ll take your word for it, but I doubt I’ll ever be able to put down my sword
it's also why I'm not trying to get mad at people here. I GET being upset. It makes sense, completely. I'm upset too. I think people don't think I am because my brain just jumps to "how to fix problem" so I come off like a robot
Yeah I mean, I'm of the mind now that they could have been more prepared for the possibility of something like this happening, and maybe they were, but not for the severity and the swiftness of it. I don't think that's unfair to feel. My only concern would be if this all gets misdirected, BUT (1/2?)
Despite the huge swath of anti-itch sentiment on here, I am also hearing the phone lines on MC/Visa are quite busy (at least secondhand accounts from folks who are calling) and the ACLU petition filled up right quickly, so there's good mobilization. Just not easily visible on here.
Transphobe spotted, opinion rejected
I'm content to punish every single party involved. I do not have a single care left to arbitrate the right proportions of blame. I will simply fire all guns in that direction.
Mister Doc, you seem more informed than I, so I ask: If Collective Shout gave a shit about ending sexploitation, wouldn't it be more impactful to target actual live action adult media, actual sex trafficking, and just things in the real world and not, say, video game smut and pixiv weirdo art??
They don't give a shit about sexual exploitation, that's just the excuse. The actual intent is to get all LGBTQ+ content of any nature marked as 'pornographic' by definition and sweep queerness back under the rug.
they don't care, which is why we should start pressuring visa and mastercard to stop funding what seems to be a literal hate group
Hi, sexworker here, they are. And we have been shouting from the rooftops about nsfw being targeted by traffickinghub, another organization that is connected to collective shout, for years. They are responsible for so much bullshit in our community and its now extended into yours.
they don't actually care about ending sexual exploitation.
Agree, so glad I left Mastercard behind. Living in Germany I have a fantastic on-line bank for my main needs and a Lithuanian account for the savings.
how do you buy stuff online?
PayPal is connected to the bank directly
PayPal has historically been anti-sex work and often bans sex work related transactions.
I see, thank you
🙏 no bother, :)
Isn't PayPal being attacked by the Shoutstapo, too? Did they actually manage not to do the objectively dumb thing like the rest?
PayPal was also targeted by collective Shout
did they comply?
No actually you can do both. Queer and NSFW creators (a demographic that already often struggles to make ends meet off their work.) lost a source of income overnight with no warning, which oddly is absent from the mainstream discussion. They are justified in not trusting Itch.
Being mad and frustrated is valid in itch, and surely for a time trust will be lost with them. But unfortunately this isn't an itch issue. It doesnt matter what site,company,publisher they did it to, they would still be served with legal action or account forclosure.
If they keep capitulating they will go under anyways. They chucked minorities under the bus to save no-one but themselves.
I think that's an over exaggeration. It's understood that they had no choice between this or go under. It's understood they are also a victim. It is unfortunately damage mitigation with the targets chosen by a 3rd party. But actively trying to harm them is only adding to the fire, not quench it.
They are being criticized, criticism is not harm and not comparable to what Itch has done by enabling fascists.
Criticizing them is valid. But that's not what you are doing when you say something like "enable fascists" when you know well that fascist are forcing people to do thing agaisnt their will, including to itch. Criticize them then, but to go after them and not the fascists is letting the fascists win.
I think you are giving a corporation way too much benefit of the doubt, but I do believe you mean well. Also you can do both and should do both. Go after the fascists and criticize those who capitulate to their demands.
And I think you are over estimating the word corporation there. Yes itch is legally a corp. But only in the same way a group of people can be an LLC. They dont even have 100 employees. And of course you can do both. But people are doing more than criticizing. They are wishing death on the site.
I do not corporations, but I can't not blame a group of people doing their best for them and others for using the rules of the system forced upon them to make their claim for existence. And I can not blame them for surviving in said system when Facists come for their throats, panicked actions or not
"capitulate" means they don't have to. What are you seeing that they could have done?
Warn people ahead of time? Especially because they admitted to knowing this was coming for about 3 months. Ana Valens mentioned warning them last year, and the Steam situation happened 2 weeks ago. Anything other than pull the plug overnight without transparency until after they get found out.
Genuinely curious if you actually sat down and read the release. They didn’t *know* about it for months. They are affected *because* of a banned game from 3 months ago.
This is also something I wonder. People see that Steam didn't withstand this pressure but believe that itch could have?
I don't give Valve the benefit of the doubt that they even made an attempt to oppose them unless there is explicit evidence otherwise.
Believe it or not, protesting fascist censorship from religious freaks and payment processors does not require you to do free damage control for those who comply with their demands like Itch. Or does a company under capitalism stops being a corporation if they have "Indie" branding?
Crypto was invented largely because people were worried about this sort of thing. You want the protections that credit cards offer? Check out crypto escrow services. You want anonymous transactions so your anti LGBT government doesn't arrest you? Crypto got your back.
The ONLY thing itch could be slightly at fault at imo is that they should've seen this coming as even without this specific group, it's clearly a thing that was happening for years. So it feels like they should've had a contingency plan with the expectation of this happening.
As the current response paints it as them being blindsided by this happening. Ofc there is something to be said about not complying in advance, but I also think it would've been just a good way to run business in general, especially if you know it's a potential threat.
there is not a single plan in the world you can have to replace visa and mastercard
the only one people have had so far is "buy points cards in japan that specifically let you circumvent this with a lot of steps"
Tbh I saw in another thread a mention of some own payment handling that second life creators did, and that they also work with 3rd parties (for example, VRChat) that allows them to circumvent it somewhat, but...
reading into their content guidelines for SL, it seems like they wouldn't have content that would be restricted by visa/MC in the first place (from surface level reading at least, and within the current "allowed" content by them), so yeah, nevermind lol
What does Terf seeming mean? Like they're Australian so them being terfs kinda makes sense but did they actually do anything or is it just speculation based on how they post/look(?).
Go look at their wikipedia page for spinifex and the pages of their authors
Ah OK. Just wanted to make sure. Thx for the clarification.
wtf? we are far less terfy than either the US or the UK, it's not some inevitable cultural thing here like it is there
Agreed, if anything, these weirdos are an outlier. We *don't* typically entertain religious nuttery or transphobia, even our right-wing sorts very from the latter.
There are definitely extremist entities that have some political influence but when these viewpoints try to come too far out of the shadows here fortunately they get smacked down pretty hard by almost everyone, see the steaming pile of what's left of the Liberal Party. 😀
#CollectiveShit
they still deserve to be called chickenshit about it tho. just a little
Also Collective Shout is an old-style feminist/sex-negative movement; their hypocrites. Because the person in-charge (Melinda Tankard Reist) supported the 'film' Cuties.. (where kids were acc abused/manipulated in production of softcore bad-stuff) as what the organisation's wikipedia mentions.
More like Melinda Tanktard Reist. She's no real "Christian" if she defends Cuties.
Melinda Tankard-Reist is notorious in Australia for being an anti-choice, anti-pornography, anti-feminist (although she claims to be one) extremist. As soon as I heard Collective Shout were behind it I went "Oh no, it's MTR again".
bsky.app/profile/did:...
if you know someone with a sizeable following, you could probably get 3000 or more people to contact visa and mastercard and very politely ask why their company is allowing an apparent hate group to brag about tricking them into killing legitimate businesses
This feels like it should be right up Louis Rossmann's alley Telling grown ass adults what they can and can't buy is some major bullshit
it's weird to get mad at itch for something other people are forcing them to do. you should get mad at the people who are doing that thing. in this case, a group of shitty hateful activists and a large corporation that's weirdly susceptible to a handful of phone callers
No, it's entirely reasonable to get mad at them for doing it, even if they have reasons in context for doing it.
bsky.app/profile/docs...
btw here's a way to do that yellat.money
Humbling reposting an action plan that @itch.io wrote on Reddit to contact Visa, master and PayPal. Hope it helps. www.reddit.com/r/itchio/com...
Correction they shared something that someone in the community wrote. While it has some good information the us laws it reccomends supporting does not help itchio and it is pro AI.
Oh, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.
Itch.o 100% had a choice when they delisted LGBTQ SFW media as part of this. I think they do need to be held accountable to some degree and not just treated as a victim.
Nobody is forcing itch to withhold already owed revenue to creators. They're choosing to do that all on their own. The payment processors might be behind the push, but they are clearly complicit.
Unfortunately it seems that if it uses their service to send the revenue, owed already or not, they are indeed being forced to not send money to them. If Mastercard doesnt want customers to pay Nsfw creators im 100% sure that applies to itch as well. Fucking sucks.
What makes you think that's a choice itch made?
What makes you think it isn't? Who else is controlling their revenue 🥱
Because everything we know about the situation makes it pretty clear they did this under duress
You mean you assume they did everything under duress. Companies take advantage of bad situations to profit all the time.
It is literally more profitable to keep nsfw content on itch than not. Itch has never acted that way (profit over creators) before, why would they start now? And also the whole "press release after the fact with no warning" points to "we had to do it immediately"
The payment processors because they're who controls the distribution of funds...
Distribution of funds is handled through the same payment processors, so yes, the processors can effectively block distribution of funds to specific—or ALL—accounts, unless/until itch has a system in place to mail out paper checks. It’s effectively a hostage situation: freeze some or lose all.
Everyone should have, long ago, sorted their payment methods if they are vulnerable to that though. Just accept bank transfer, other cards, cheques and whatnot. You don’t have to use any duopoly credit card because I don’t either and I still buy plenty of stuff online.
The marketplace at large has decided decades ago that direct bank transfer is not an acceptable way of making day to day transactions. Any merchant with your account and routing numbers can simply make whatever withdrawal requests it wants. The Mastercard/Visa duopoly did not appear out of nowhere.
Uhm, no, I use it a lot and never had a wrong charge. It’s called SEPA and it works in Europe on the daily basis that people can’t simply make up your consent just because they have your account number. I know @ Americas it isn’t used at all, but that’s really not an issue in Europe, so solvable.
SEPA was started in 2008. Visa *spun out* of Bank of America in 1976. We don't use SEPA because six decades ago the marketplace already settled on credit and debit cards as the primary way to make day to day transactions.
Yeah but simply put: this is why you’re dependent now and therefore fucked. Collectively you can absolutely have SEPA or whatever because the people at large are the market in this case, not just a specific small target group. People just need to stop being convenient, folding like a lawn chair.
So question: how should I pay rent *next month* while I'm waiting for SEPA to magically come to America under the Trump regime and while I'm waiting for a society-wide revolution on payment processors to happen?
You act like we're all just sitting here complacent - I cannot begin to tell you the amount of work I have put into researching payment options. I am not Paypal by choice.
To be fair, plain SEPA isn't great for online purchases yet. The instant payments regulation that should enable that comes into force only in October. (I agree they really should provide more options where that's available though, seeing as how the lower fees would likely more than offset costs.)
Well October is good considering that’s just a few months away and would help argue that storefronts don’t need to do censor anything if they can hold out until then. Or just, you know, "delist" stuff until then and then turn it back on in the frontend. October = better than most from-scratch ideas
Look let's face political realities. People do not start thinking about alternatives to deeply seated institutions until things start going wrong and even then it's slow to start real discussions.
We can trace the first signs of danger to when MasterCard barred Pornhub from its services in 2020. It was a little hard to argue against them at the time since it was a reaction to damning accusations that Pornhub was not diligently screening for CSA.
I use Subscribestar instead of Patreon and my market is maybe 1/5th what it would be on Patreon. "Just sort out your payment methods." Holy fuck, customers use Paypal. This isn't complicated.
"Ah yes, just accept a cheque for commissions." Do you have any idea how few commissions I would get? Critters really genuinely do not think through this shit. You can accept alternate payment methods. The problem is that critters *don't use them*. It is a fraction of the overall market.
Do people even really use cheques, outside of the US? It's certainly very far from normal here in Scandinavia. Do they even work internationally?
Yes, they do, but your bank may turn down issuing them internationally. Not so much an issue if the recipient is big enough though! But this is basically how it was like before cards and businesspeople sometimes had blank cheques on them if they had to do trade wherever they went.
You want me to believe I can make a living accepting cheques? I cannot even get audiences to stop using Patreon and Twitch. There are alternative platforms that I already support, and they see almost zero usage. Users. Won't. Move.
You want to know how fucking bad this is? I get contacted maybe once every two weeks by critters telling me they would commission me if only I was on Discord. Forget payment processors, I lose revenue by not being on a mainstream *messenger*. Critters have not thought about market effects.
This reminds me of when a bunch of furries tried to organize a movement from Telegram to Signal. I'm on Signal. I'm there. Nothing preventing anypony from commissioning me there instead of Telegram. It's happened a total of 2 times. No. Artists cannot just "sort out" their payment methods.
"They would use alternative methods if you weren't on the other-" I'm not on Patreon. I am extremely aware of how much money I am losing because of that. It's not caused a bunch of critters to come over to Subscribestar. I started drawing and I didn't use FA. Movement didn't happen.
Uh, it’s not about the cards you use but about what customers are allowed to use to pay for your work. Most large processors won’t touch anything Visa doesn’t, PayPal is extremely conservative too. Ultimately it severely limits business.
Plus not everyone wants or is safe giving out their legal name to all their customers.
I’ve never had issues with PayPal but I have to point out that all of those issues also pertain to legal protections you may lack due to different frameworks. On the other hand you may also be forced to have a legal name somewhere, that is a separate issue that may also occur in billing via cash.
Have you ever tried to pay for any sort of erotic or sexually explicit product? You'd know that PayPal refuses to facilitate such transactions.
More than half of my sex worker friends are banned from using PayPal simply for *being* sex workers, not even for attempting to use it to sell content or services, which I still disagree with but would at least make sense since it’s against their terms.
I mean yes, you need a legal name somewhere to receive the money, but you don’t necessarily want to publicly attach your personal name when selling let’s say custom harnesses for monster dildos, that’s what storefronts like Etsy are for, which has banned sex products too thanks to Mastercard.
I've been in this space a long time and when you do that people assume you're scamming them and you get far less sales.
That’s not going to be an issue as soon as people are aware. It’s also a matter of convenience from your bank. Brazil just rolled out a new direct transfer method that’s card-less and it immediately overtook card payments. As long as people think only card is easy and safe, you’re dependent.
Well sure but try running a business people historically associate with shiftyness and give them a method to pay they aren't familiar with. It's been tried so many times. Even a high risk unfamiliar card processor severely hampers sales.
Cannot confirm per se. Of course people want convenience and safety but word by mouth is fast once a new safe thing exists. Brazil’s Pix is that. It just actually has to work. The other outcome is that you bow to the current new rules until you’ve taught two cc companies that it isn’t the year 197X.
I'm an ex sex worker with a decade of experience. It's been tried countless times and it doesn't work. Not only does it not work, the seller gets their account shut down the second the banks take a glance.
Well, if you get bank accounts shut then this is a separate issue from the card processing for games though. Because via extension of that issue, your card issuing bank would also not be allowed to let you have the card. I would assume that is what separates the NSFW game issue from IRL sex work.
That would in practice restrict the creator's market to their own country and maybe a few other neighboring countries. Might (possibly) work if you live in a large country like the USA. Will not work as well if you live in a smaller country and are dependent on payment methods that work globally.
Yeah but that’s also me. You would be surprised how many payment methods that US people use to not work in the EU! And yet I pay for things daily. In fact, technically, you could even reverse the European EC (now dubbed Electronic Cash) system back to EuroCheque and digitize it again independently.
I just wrote to VISA giving them 30 days to back of, or my business will stop using VISA. I am a small business but if many of us team up, we can have a real impact.
Also contacting your country's consumer protection commission and petitioning your government into doing a royal commission into the Visa MasterCard duopoly (if ur country has something like a royal commission that is) is a good idea too.
insofar as there are consumer protections in the US, they are currently in the clutches of Transphobe Prime and likely won't be of any help
In the long run breaking up that duopoly's hold over payment processing will likely put a chill over any one payment processer's power to do this again in the future.
YOU have a following. You could share visa and mastercards numbers instead of tone policing the response of folks whose livelihoods have been stolen from under their feet with no notice bsky.app/profile/iant...
Here are a few more numbers/addresses: www.mastercard.com/global/en/vi...
you should post visa and mastercards phone numbers in this thread
an apparent hate group, *who aren't even from the united states, no less,* to brag about tricking them into killing legitimate businesses like how and why they even listened to them is beyond me
They partnered with two American hate groups to shore up their numbers. NCOSE and Exodus Cry are both Christian charities in the US that target sex work, sex ed, LGBT content, same sex marriage, sex toys, porn, and more all under the guise of preventing human trafficking.
i mean, aside from the obvious "sex work is pedophilia and furry is zoophilia" hogwash
Just proves the old adage: "Don't fuck with furries".
I'm not sure I understand you. What's been proven?
This is actually crazy
For anyone in US - UK - CAN - AUS can make most noise Don't see any banned games or pulled itch.io assests in EU-side, yet bsky.app/profile/ical...
I can still access Itch.io 's NSFW-purchases from EU-side idk how to situation is on other countries like US, UK, CAN or AUS with more strict online-laws - with possible pressure to shut down access by credit card-companies
freely quoting people working on the field/legality may vary on nation: "If you have assets or your access to your purchase has been restricted, you have all the reason to complain" - possibly violating customer rights I am no expert. Whether anyone can formulate effective response - please share
Script by @shonen413.itch.io “Hello, my name is __, and I would like to file a complaint. I find it troubling that Mastercard is blocking content on (the platforms) and making it difficult for me to make legal purchases. I am going to stop using Mastercard if this isn’t rescinded and fixed."
I emailed them and then also copied my congressional delegation because this is abuse of monopoly power.
The comments on that post are gross, itch can't fight this, they have to comply or die.
They're blaming the one with their hands tied, instead of the one who tied their hands.
No, itch are absolutely complicit in this. They are not a bunch of uwu soft boys, they are a corporation. Corporations are not our friends, corporations are not people and corporations do not have feelings, much less ones we should be worried about hurting.
Itch as far as I can tell has <200 employees. If they aren't uwu soft boys, literally no organization in existence is.
The blame here lies entirely with Visa/Mastercard and Collective Shout, not with itch.
Itch might've been able to handle this shitty situation slightly better but they would not have been able to entirely stop it.
It may sound harsh but I genuinely don't care.
Be mad at the right people.
I am.
So you just like being wrong and lashing out at people who can't do anything?
They did a lot wrong, actually. They capitulated instead of fighting. They gave absolutely no warning to creators. They're currently withholding money from creators whose work got flagged.
itch had months of warning and didn't do shit, and are now withholding funds from creators whose work they sold
It is very likely they literally couldn't talk about this openly with customers while negotiations were still underway for a variety of legal reasons. It's also likely that VISA/Mastercard has said that they absolutely cannot dispense the funds you are referring to.
I don't care.
"Do the thing because it feels good regardless of the outcome" is not activism. It's a temper tantrum. While it would've been cathartic to watch a company loudly self-immolate rather than bend the knee to Visa/Mastercard, it would've accomplished nothing at all.
This isn't a fucking TV drama
If the company won't set itself on fire to defend the people it literally markets itself on defending the right to free expression of, then what reason does it have to exist at all?
setting itself on fire would not have accomplished *literally anything* except for making this problem worse. The deindexing isn't permanent, it's a stopgap measure until they can perform a complete review. There will still be adult content on itch after this is over.
They shouldn't have done any of this at all.
Itch has less than 10 employees and many of them are part time.
You're so pathetic less than 200 is still huge. STFU, They're throw you to wolves to save themselves. Where is your pride?!!!
correct. organisations aren't you friend, they aren't neutral parties.
I'm with you on this Vex. Itch are absolutely complicit and deserve everything they're gonna get. If companies won't stand up to the payment processors, we have fuck all hope of it changing.
"stand up to" There is no standing up to a payment processor. That is not a thing anyone can do
Nonsense.
No, it's literally the most fucked up thing about business: you can't exist if you can't use these companies. At all. They can do whatever they want to you and there is literally nothing you can do about it. Nothing.
Whatever you say.
Okay but what did they actually do wrong
By their own admission, they knew about this situation in mid-April, and sat on the information for three months. The Steam situation happened two weeks ago. They had time to warn creators, but they didn't. They're currently withholding money from creators whose work got flagged.
Their response was so weak too. “We’ve done this now.” They should have told us why, who did it, what we can do about it at the LEAST if they aren’t going to fight themselves! They’re fucking BUILT on indie creators they’re just giving up on now. Anything would have been better than nothing.
No they didn't. They know it's because of a game that released in April
A lot of perfectly SFW content that has the "LGBT" tag has been delisted. This is a fucking pogrom.
A lot of folks were blindsided by this because they had tagged their games as adult for other reasons too, many indie horror devs for example didn't see this coming because everyone was focused on it being about porn
their initial response on discord was to shitpost about it as well we should definitely not be going after itch right now but they should be held accountable for their reaction to this bullshit steam shouldn't have been the more supportive platform, i really did think itch had devs in mind
What makes steam more supportive?
i'm not dying on that hill for twitter bullshit maybe they weren't because you can still find porn games on itch just as you can on steam the rollout seems a lot more overarching and affecting on itch due to withheld payouts and number of games affected itch sucks was our point, idrc which is worse
Sucks for what
Hey asshole why are you out here tone policing queers for being upset their livelihood is being pulled away? Why dont you fuck off instead
What tone policing?
Go back to writing thinkpieces and slurping Tim Sweeney's cock you shitty little quisling
i'm gonna be real with you dude, i'm just pissed off about the continued social murder of me and my friends i'm going off of what people i know have been affected are saying and that's really it friends that are or know nsfw devs since i didn't give proof and won't i clearly could be wrong
I don't think it's too unreasonable for people who've been chased from location to location to be irritated and hurt when it happens again and again, is the thing. That's income to a lot of people, a library to many, or a place to share resources. Itch chose to comply. Burn *some* books, y'know?
It is very much a case of money speaks but it's still incredibly disheartening to see absolute nonsense go uncontested. I do hope people are giving the banking companies a good piece of their mind as much as they are itch, mind you!
I'm pissed too, which is why I'm trying to get people to go after the ones responsible and not target people who are being held hostage
i said in my first reply that we should be going after the payment processors instead of itch in that department we're on the same page the problem, seemingly, is how they handled the choice they were forced into
What was the discord response they made?
Someone said they posted a salute emoji
Steam been more supportive? They just did the same thing and have been less affected by backlash because people just don't care. Am I missing something?
It's even worse: Steam silently changed their TOS. Itch at least announced it on their blog that can be seen on front page.
Steam hasn’t been “more supportive” but they were *significantly* more precise with their search blacklist and content removal scalpels than itchio was from what I understand
that's what i meant
Exactly—this wasn’t sudden. They had months to be transparent, to give creators a heads-up, to let people protect their livelihoods. Instead, they stayed quiet and are now withholding money like it’s no big deal. It’s betrayal, plain and simple.
Where is the proof they had months?
The timeline points to it—by their own admission, they were aware of the payment processor pressure as early as mid-April. But they didn’t alert creators or update policies until much later, and by then accounts were already being flagged and funds withheld. That delay is the proof.
That is incorrect. They know that the game that got them flagged was in April. That does not say when they found out that they were flagged. They got a notice about this within the past day or so, as far as anyone can tell.
I’m reaching out for support from kind well-wishers—please consider donating or sharing my GoFundMe link. We urgently need food, clean water, and other essentials, and many other trans people in the camp depend on this support. Every penny truly makes a difference. gofund.me/737da6eb
Seeing a lot of people defending itch with some distinctly scabby logic
If someone points a gun to my head and threatens to kill me unless I do something awful, am I at fault for doing that awful thing? Cuz under your framework, it sounds like I would be.
how should we contact them, what should we say exactly to reverse this??? I'm an autistic queer who needs exact instructions, I'm really worried about my future and feel like the walls are closing in and aaaaaaaaaaah 😭
Call their service number. Go through the menu and choose "other" if they don't have a complaints section. Tell them what you're concerned about. For me, it was specifically, "I don't appreciate a third party dictating what I can spend my money on".
This seems like good place to start bsky.app/profile/void...
Thank you for sharing this! We really need to work together to make the payment processors LISTEN
Itch is literally withholding payouts from creators. bsky.app/profile/daff...
Who processes those payments?
Who owns the website?
the company that processes payments is not the company that owns the website. itch does not have that money with the ability to simply send it to whomever they wish without the people who _process those transactions_ having a say in what they do. those processors are the problem.
They needed to be cutting people physical checks at the same moment they turned this off, at minimum. Anything else is stealing.
This uwu baby "itch isn't responsible for anything" shit is ridiculous. They aren't responsible for everything, but they're not responsible for /nothing/, either.
Okay, what are they responsible for?
Getting payments to creators in the timely fashion they promised, period.
"but the payment processors" This kind of shit has been going on for years. They were responsible for being prepared.
Paper checks still work.
Itch as a platform alone has more pull than 1000 random people, and the community would rally to support Itch if they chose to be champions in this fight. Furthermore, very few people angry at Itch are somehow not angry at Visa/Mastercard.
getting mad at a company for folding when they have no choice is pointless. getting mad at the people who caused the problems and developing a strategy to fuck them up is the way to actually win
They absolutely do have a choice to leverage their bargaining power to push back against the 1000 people who contribute far less money to Visa/MC than they do. And to galvanise the entire community in their favour and to lead in the construction of a broad coalition in opposition to their policies.
that's... not how that works, though. Itch going to visa and mastercard and saying "no, this is bullshit" won't do anything.
Please learn how bargaining power works so you can be an effective political actor in this world. 1000 people contacted Visa/MC and said "This is bullshit" and they cancelled Itch and Steam over it. Itch, you, the community and sex workers as a whole, can do way better than that.
Itch deciding to sit the fight out is rightly called out as pathetic.
Yes they can do this, but it isn’t instantaneous and isn’t like Visa is going to sit and wait for them. They were forced into immediate action and had to take steps, better things were delisted than straight deleted. Payment processors were always puritanical, probably weren’t pushed hard
bsky.app/profile/gels...
Okay, but if they’ve just had the time to make a statement now, when we’re they expected to get all of that done? If days pass and no movement has been made except the delisting of nsfw content, then yeah, be furious with itch. But why be preemptively mad at a company that was always supportive?
1000 randos from Australia have almost no affect on MC/Visa's bottom line. Itch uses them to process millions in transactions. How about they immediately reply "Fuck you. Change that policy or you'll lose these millions in transactions" and what is MC/Visa going to do?
tbh i think problem there might be that mc/visa is So anti-sex that they would be willing to lose millions in transactions if it means they get to stick it to nsfw creators
Are they going to purposely choose to make less money so they can get sued by investors for failing in their fiduciary responsibility and lose billions?
MC/Visa’s bottom line is so big Itch’s income might as well be the same as a 100 randos. Their contracts do not allow disputes, it is comply or termination. They were already aligned with the puritans to start with, we do not have equal pull with them.
People are sadly really clueless about the business world. :(
Cowardice and risk aversion when apparent allies are faced with real, consequential, bigotry is absolutely something to be angry at. You should be leveraging every single drop of bargaining power you have, and that means yelling at Itch to join the fight too.
the fact you think a room full of people that host a website for indie games has ANY pull against a payment processor worth tens of billions of dollars is kind of laughable. will you go to your job and not get paid to "fight the good fight?" probably not. but it's easy to suggest others do it!
Please learn how the world works, learn how to be an effective political actor. bsky.app/profile/gels...
I am aware of how the world works which means I understand that it costs a lot of money to operate a website of their size and championing a cause that means nobody anywhere get paid is certainly a great way to be on the right side of history, to the benefit of nuking your entire platform! get real.
📌
Logical and reasonable, but not going to happen. Mercy is in short supply with the world constantly getting worse, people are reacting with their emotions - this is completely valid. Even if visa/mastercard reverse their decision - itch io has lost collective trust, it's a dead platform walking.
We can punish both
okay, so, we punish every struggling developer in existence because we're mad at visa and some australians. got it. let's just hurt everyone around us who isn't responsible for this shit because we're mad. It won't do any good and makes us bad people, but at least we were able to hurt someone
I wasn't aware Itch was the struggling developers they extract value from.
why punish some of the biggest advocates for indie games and supporters of nsfw content for *checks notes* having a gun to their head and making the only possible choice? if you're just here to hurt anyone you can so you can feel good about yourself, we don't need to talk.
Why are you going to bat for a corporation that just proved it doesn't care about queer people or sex workers? One that sat on the information since April, allowing devs to get blindsided and is refusing to engage with its userbase while they complain about this policy?
Even if they had no choice but to comply they could've made sure everyone was prepared for what was coming, they could've acted regretful about the situation and expressed support for those affected, they could've linked to some kind of gofundme. Instead they cut them loose like so much ballast.
why do you believe they could've made sure everyone was prepared when they were so clearly blindsided themselves? do you know how long it takes to set up a gofundme? and do you know that the very payment processors threatening them are the same people who process gofundmes?
My proposal as well is to spam visa and Mastercard support/email and start planning how to ddos their servers cause second will be even more effective.
If you do something that gets you arrested, you will make the bad guys who did this legally look like the good guys. Get mass phone calls started, and make sure you tell them about collective Shout and Spinifex and how you want them removed from payment processing.
Doing God's work here, Doc.
*shrug* nobody deserves this shit
Got more than that in RTs right now, ffs
i know y'all hate crypto but solving this is literally its main benefit.
bsky.app/profile/acva...
Ngl this whole situation is so damn stupid all because oh some people can't just mind their own business, but nooo because it exists they have to try to ruin it. I'm just glad no one's tried to pull a "think of the children" especially when you have to go out of your way to find nsfw stuff on itch
Could it also be worth applying to/fundraising for the ACLU to fight it on 1st Amendment grounds? It is after all driven by US companies. If 5000 people approach the ACLU and fundraise towards a case, it would be a solid legal challenge rather than hoping a card company listens to us (I doubt it)
They already have a petition: action.aclu.org/petition/mas...
Sure, though as I understand it, that's a petition *via* the ACLU's action programme and is specifically worded around sex work. I'm suggesting a petition *to* the ACLU asking them to take on a case against Mastercard, Visa or Paypal affecting content distribution platforms on 1st Amendment grounds
Itch is very much a victim when it comes to this mess.
There’s an ACLU petition trying to get 150k signatures. Please sign before its too late bsky.app/profile/mrla...
Yep I Say it again and again People need to Fight against Collective Shout, NCOSE, AVPA and Exodus Cry too! They are all in it as they work together as well! They are the main ones that loves control and censorship!
Honestly, even if you're think itch is just as bad, we still need to remember that none of this would have happened if it wasn't for collective shout and payment processors. Even if we all agree that itch were bad guys here, they would still be more of a symptom of a larger problem than the
why would they even be the bad guys tho? like, it's objectively bad the announcement came after the move, rather than vice versa, but knowing itch, that sounds very much like itch being told "do this instantly or you die" and not a "we had tons of time to write this statement and a deadline"
That's a pretty fair argument, honestly, I don't know. Personally I'm not sure about any of this, literally the only thing that feels clear to me is that all of this is these stupid payment processors' fault... Do you genuinely believe they had no choice, like really? not trying to mock or
anything.... is it really impossible for them to have been able to warn us preemptively? Was I.... was I unfair to them... am I part of the problem?
it's possible they legally couldn't have
Oh my god.... I was such an idiot....
nah, no one knows for certain and it's a pretty outrageous event, but no matter what it's better for us to focus our rage at Visa and MasterCard
Agreed! I did my part, signing petitions and all, I did all I can do, at least at the moment...
problem itself, so yeah, FLOOD THESE PAYMENT PROCESSORS, DON'T LET THEM HAVE A MOMENT OF PEACE, FLOOD THEM WITH CONSTANT COMPLAINTS!
Do you have a link to the form?
usa.visa.com/Forms/contac... sure. Go nuts
I've done my part as well
You bet your ass I'm calling, so some of you folks better do it too. I hate confrontation but this is absolutely ridiculous.
The VISA website has a contact number for, seemingly, all countries they operate on. usa.visa.com/contact-us.h... This is the US site, but you can change your region at the very bottom of the page and all versions have the same menu with phone numbers, in case you wanna make a bit more noise.
Why should businesses that bend the knee get to survive? We can go after the source and not support platforms that throw us under the bus There needs to be consequences in the opposite direction
bending the knee is a choice.
Itch is still guilty here, not for the ban itself but for how they handled it. No heads up for creators? No heads up for people who spent money to download what they paid for? Nope, just taking the money and running
Ok, I just heard of this from Yesterday. And "TODAY" they act ’cause they are rushed to compel. I don’t think Itch have infinite manpower, or any time. It’s like they had to find and isolate (not delete rn) all the targeted content and process everything as fast as possible. Time only will say now.
I hope that’s what it is because if not this is probably the worst possible way to handle this entire thing
Yeah, it's not like them to do this which is why I think people have been saying it was sudden If we find out itch had a threat and a date six months ago, then itch deserves a lot of criticism, but I don't think that's how they do things. I've never known them to act like that
The founder is connected to a Far Right Think tank called Women's Forum Australia, and Collective Shout has spoken at a Baptist Church event. Seems they're just straight up far right Christians larping as feminists.
Or maybe they're not "Christians" and are "Christians" in name only.
The problem is that itch hasn't actually told the whole truth, and has regularly positioned themselves as an alternative. If they're not an alternative and are still more trouble than the other sites, why bother with them?
what do you believe they're keeping back? you don't have to bother with them, but going after people who have historically been the biggest advocates for indie games, and the go-to for them _because_ they're so supportive, because they did something under clear duress seems literally evil.
- Known about this for at least a month, yet failed to inform any of the creators, who could have taken action. - Removed at least some paid titles from some users' libraries. - Deindexing ALL nsfw content, which also nets much of the LGBTQ+ content, not just the minimum required.
What evidence do you have that they've known about this "for at least a month"? Like. The press release says this is based on *a game* that got pulled in April, but that does not mean "We knew this was coming in April".
On top of that, Collective Shout is lying, they (and previous anti-LGBTQ groups) have been engaged in this for the past 20+ years, it's not "1000 calls", the "1000 calls" are to get the processor to take action against a single specific entity.
yeah. we can get a few thousand more calls to get stores like visa to take action against collective shout and spinifex.
There's no rule you can point to in the payment processors' agreements under which to have them barred, because it's sadly not a violation to be TERFs, subtextual racists, or otherwise barely-human.
In order to fix this problem, you need groups like the ACLU, who are willing to defend the worst people and the worst media in order to ensure everyone has the same rights, but they've unfortunately been stripped of power over time by some of the same people who need them now.
BTW I'm not saying people SHOULDN'T be calling the payment processors. People just need to understand that it's unlikely to achieve anything, and there's a fuckload more work that has to go into it, including defending some of the most vile shit you can think of that's still legal.
Eh, if we actually have a decent movement? We absolutely can have an impact. Every second a rep spends on the phone with someone costs them $. It also increases hold times for other callers, who are likely to eventually ask why - which is why callers should give some details about current events.
Itch dropping this without warning actually deserves the anger and critique And seemingly also holding back money from nsfw accounts is also a bad look
This. Whether we like Itch is your decision. But this is not going to stop. Payment processors pulled this shit b4 with OnlyFans and Ebay. Combined that with RW nutjobs getting energized with recent age verification bills and this push is ongoing. We have to go at the root before it spreads.
They will go after the next popular place, those anti porn anti lgbtq freaks think they're on a mission and realized the payment processors are the weakest link in the internet chain. That's why we have to fight it now before it gets normalized for the average person.
is it something we may even have a shred of influence on from outside the US considering both the payment processor and affected companies are from there?
I mean, an australian activist group did this, sooooooooo I would assume you could?
I asked my bank and they said no. Depends on country and collective agreement the banks and central banks have with payment processors.
just need to go find where to send the message/call that won't be memory holed then I suppose
Yes, but the payment companies are probably not folding out of conviction but more because they don't like any risk. In this regard, It might be more effective to try to pressure our representatives to do something. That said we should do both.
yeah that was my 1st thought which then led me to "it's 2 US companies will they even care if a group of random French MPs are a bit angry about it?"
they folded to the nutcases because they do not want to take any risk. Having MPs of the EU angry at them is not a consequence they expect and qualifies as a risk. Ideally we should aim for an EU public consultation to have the lawmakers to take a look. Like for conversion therapies.
Let's start an EU petition on that, then. A well-written one, and let's publicise it.
yeah I was looking at something a little bit more short term than an EU public consultation although this should also be a goal
A public consultation can have effects well before it ends, if it's publicized enough..
be careful not to mix "Public consultation" and "Citizens' Initiative" that are a bit 2 different things (and while yes the iron is hot now most initiative only reach criticality near the end from experience) public consultation is the Commission asking feedback
You're right, my bad; I was thinking of a Citizens Initiative, like the one against conversion therapies.
Yes same here, wasn't sure neither.
no worries I had to go recheck myself cuz they have like 3 different systems ^^
but given the original group is Australian maybe it could work?
itch pulled the livelihood out from under their users without notice. People whose accounts have been flagged have been notified they are restricted from making payouts for work they sold prior to these changes. Itch deserves flak as a result of this as well
they should be supporting their community, not cutting them off and cutting them out.
☝️ This this this. Seems everyone is supportive of the LGBT community (and adult content creators) until the bottom line is threatened. And when there comes an opportunity to make a real statement or stand on principle, suddenly.. whoops we're an inconvenience, under the bus we go.
As im understanding it itch can't pay them, not that they dont want to. The bank/mastercard won't let them. Mastercard has said either make certain people not get paid or no one gets paid. For sure itch is panicking and hopefully they can start pulling some stuff back, but mastercard is at fault.
Is it Visa or Mastercard? Or both? There seem to be some conflicting reports on who is at fault. (yeah the terfs, but which payment processor fell for the propaganda). Time to look into getting rid of my creditcard anyway.
I do believe it's both. CS and itch have both just mainly said "Payment Processors" so really there are a lot of umbrella terms going around. But I do believe all processors are following suite of Visa and Mastercard since that's about 90%ish of the economy.
That's my understanding too, maybe PayPal as well simply because of their presence in online storefronts
Wonder if they are also putting pressure on iDEAL (for some reason we here in .nl have a special payment system only for us, which is prob a good method forward for others to implement). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEAL
Stripe more likely. PayPal was the first to start cracking down on adult content in a really way, but they're not nearly as aggro about it as stripe and the credit card companies.
it's both I believe
I expect two things as a creator for on itch 1. communication before decisions like this that affect our livelihood are made 2. support from itch to back up the users and creators in the face of pressure from third parties, rather than capitulation to those parties and cutting off creators
1) that is unusual for them. Which indicates urgency 2) what do you think someone can do in the face of a payment processor threatening them?
info says they've known this was coming since April push back, get lawyers involved with the money they've earned off of our games, help facilitate organizing against the payment processor instead of leaving it to the now cut off community members forced to do so out of desperation.
The only April reference is to a game that released in April, which is not the same as when they got the notice
okay well creators have lost their livelihood overnight and weren't communicated to about it and that's a problem I agree that visa and mastercard and other payment processors need to be targeted for this. itch needs to back its community up though as well instead of caving like this
Agreed with the first two, but question whether we know itch could have handled it better
and on point one, their only communication prior to doing this, and for hours afterwards, was a salute emoji in the discord server
I get that the payment processors are the primary target here, but I expect a site with the reputation of itch to stand up for its users, to communicate effectively to the people who make a living on it, and to reassure those affected that they are willing to fight for them
And lets not forget, Punish the REAL monsters aka Collective Shout. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSEx...
no explanation required for why. the video explains it all. so #SaveSteam #SaveItch.io
bsky.app/profile/void... i saw in a comment you mentioned using your following to help spread info, contact etc. Here is a great thread with contact infos, a doc with scripts/ template etc.!!
Thank you for helping share this around!!! We gotta get as many people speaking out as possible!
They're also controlled by NCOSE, a Christian conservative group who wants to ban all porn and lgbt people.
100% we need to be contacting payment processors! Itch absolutely handled this poorly BUT they are only the most recent in a long list of sites impacted by this I put together info + a script for contacting for anyone who wants it bsky.app/profile/void...
Spinifex press is def transphobic, look at this shit www.spinifexpress.com.au/events/terf-...
The takedown notices by Itch seem to specifically link Stripe and Payoneer - PayPal is also linked but does not contain an outright “adult entertainment” ban like the other two. Anyone who has ever used these or is a seller should have the right to complain to them. This is an antitrust issue.
Stripe and PayPal are the only methods they have for payouts at all as I recall
Interesting. I wonder what would happen if someone who lists a contested game/product would link a PayPal that only has a bank account linked on it but no credit cards. This is how I use it, but I assume Americans usually have cards only.
PayPal is one of the processors involved
Yes, but hasn’t been involved with the terms update so far. Only the other two have added "adult entertainment" bans. And so far I haven’t heard of PayPal announcing a future change either, even though it’s possible it doesn’t apply to Europeans outside of Steam and Itch purchases anyway.
The influence of collective shout goes a lot deeper than that from what I’ve heard, but indeed. Make noise and lots of it.
I can do both, and both deserve it.
why does itch deserve it?
Maybe listen to queers instead of your white guy friends, useless techbro
in a practical sense, itch deserves the blame for fucking the creators from which it profitted in the middle of the night and real sneakylike, giving them no warning or time to prepare.
in an ideological sense, I blame them for caving - though I understand that the idea that they wouldn't, especially in the US, is laughable. Still, someone needs to take a stand or this will keep happening and it'd be nice if it was a corporation that took a stand for once instead of just people.
genuine question: your company is online. you need money to keep the servers up. the person who can stop you from using the money you already have tells you they're going to do it unless you do what they want. what could you do in thsi situation?
what makes you think this was sneaky and not "OH SHIT OH FUCK WE HAVE TO DO THIS NOW OR WE DIE"?
this is not even the fifth first time this happens, not having a plan for this is naive at best.
I can't speak for other people, but in my case I would have seen this coming years ago from both the many patreon payment processor issues and the time that mastercard and visa did this to japanese stores. Then I'd look into alternative ways to accept payment which is a whole can of worms in itself.
If I found no recourse, I would at the very least give a one week to one month of warning before purging or deindexing the storefront.
right, but this happened, as best anyone can tell, within the past 24 hours. they did not have advance notice
still applies. I would not immediately start purging things to comply, I'd give the creators from whom I've been profiting for who knows how long at least some time and would start that either a week or a month from now. if that delay was unacceptable to mastercard and visa, well, too bad.
Everything I've heard makes it sound like Itch was not in a position to give people time.
I also blame them because the assignment of blame is important in situations like this. This isn't the first time this happens and it won't be the last. Even if people convince the payment processors to back off on this this time (which I hope we will but am not holding out hope for)
in six months or two years another group (or the same) will do the same thing and we'll be back here again if we keep pussyfooting with this "this isn't itch's fault" or "they were forced to do this" shit. Someone has to take a proper stand against this bullshit or it will keep happening.
okay, so the plan is to yell at the people who were told "either you do what we say or we shut you down tonight" because that will achieve what, exactly?
hopefully with enough yelling they'll stop complying with the people saying they'll shut them down tonight.
i'm not sure I follow. if you don't comply with a company like visa, they kill your ability to use your money at all. you can't pay server costs, employees, anything. your company just spontaneously combusts
personally I'd try to move to Brazil. Wouldn't solve all issues but would help there a bit.
Or people can do *both*. Itch is just as complicit as Mastercard and Visa, and especially considering how they handled this, they absolutely deserve copious amounts of backlash.
how are they complicit? what did they do wrong?
They removed stuff lmao? I fail to see how you can look at them removing games and denying creators who's games they removed the money they've earned and say "oh what did they do wrong"
they de-indexed games when a payment processor forced them to do so. how is that their fault?
I- Did you even read the last part of my comment, or are you being intentionally dense? Ignoring that, they could....oh, I don't know...not do that? Actually have something resembling a backbone, perhaps?
Or, at the absolute minimum, give warning to creators who'd be affected. Don't forget that sfw games got caught in this too.
Yes, we're all at risk. i'm acutely aware. why do you believe they could have issued the statement earlier than they did?
They didn't warn anyone, they shadowbanned 21k games without warning. This stuff was rolling around months ago, so a warning was very much possible lmao.
Also, while you're calling, remind Visa/Mastercard that blocking the purchase of legal obtainable goods is a severe anti-trust/anti-consumer suit waiting to happen. I think they'd be more scared of getting sued for doing something that hurts their rep than doing something to make conservatives mad.
