Can we get a couple more words about this 🙏?

That said, the Rambam is not the end all and be all of Jewish approaches to theology.

Also, that list is a summary of a much longer and more nuanced discussion, and even he admitted he wasn’t certain about all of the principles.

Yeah Rambam as simplified by Chabad is *especially* not the last word on Jewish theology.

And the entire Jewish tradition since 1200 has been in tension to some extent w/Rambam incl the 13 principles. Quoting Rambam’s thoughts on many things makes one sound like a total heretic, as it were. The more Orthodox one is, the more likely that one engages in a # of behaviors R despised.

But also (and this is the tension) the 13 principles can be quite intertwined with aspects of observant Judaism, and not just Orthodoxy. So the whole “you don’t have to believe in God to be Jewish” its quite an oversimplification for anyone to the right of Reform.

Ehhh I’ve known plenty of agnostic-to-atheist Conservative Jews and a handful of Modern Orthodox ones. Like the main thing is, in a Jewish context, you rarely if ever get *asked* if you believe in God.

Jewish atheists are way louder on social media than they are at Torah study because on social media everyone has to interact with weirdo Christians and Christian antitheists insisting on Christian norms. No one at Torah study has ever asked me what I believe about God.

And to be clear, I’m agnostic, not atheist, and yes, Reform/Reconstructionist but I’ve been studying Torah weekly with a Conservative rabbi for 7? 8? years now and she’s never asked me what I think about God.

Like, I’m having a hard time imagining any point in normal Jewish activities where disclosing your level of belief in a deity would even come up?

I said this in another context, but it’s Elul, so all my comms from Jewish sources is t’shuvah focused and none of it is about “didn’t believe in God enough”

Not even with converts! And my ORTHODOX rabbi teacher emphasized this. They dont ask converts “do you believe in Gd?”. They ask if you are sure you want to be a Jew. Its a KEY difference between Judaism vs Islam & Christianity. “Faith” isnt really at the core in the same way

Right, but as a LW Modern Orthodox person, I think part of the reason is that a certain amount of belief is implied by your actions once you are living a (not necessarily Ortho) traditional life. Maybe it’s belief in community, the future, and/or your partner, but it’s a lot to do w/o belief.

I think it just isn't a particularly important or interesting question in a Jewish context? "Interesting" in the sense that its answer would have a material impact.

Yes, but I don’t understand the willingness to argue on the Internet with Christian atheists about anything. What could the point possibly be? I feel pretty similarly about the whole Pharisees question. Xians are definitely wrong on that, but how many people who could be convinced aren’t already?

They drop into ongoing conversations.

Because Christian antitheism is a form of white supremacy (and, I’d argue, Christianity) and it’s important, to me at least, to keep it on the record that there are entire other ways of doing culture out there. I’m not trying to change the mind of the person I’m arguing with.

I’m trying to get people observing it to consider that maybe everything they consider normal and the only way to be isn’t.

Seriously, I actually want to know, what is the reasoning for classifying Christian antitheism as a form of white supremacy?

I also largely stay out of disputation Bluesky.

When you try to be nice and explain to people about what Jewish atheist means 4 out of 5 will dismiss you and block you 1 out of 5 will tank you for explaining it

I do find it somewhat hilarious that the people who are the most intense about the Rambam also tend to be the most intense in railing against ‘assimilation’.

Not me but fair.

davening at rambam’s grave

Especially because the livelihood it’s even his grave is so small.

*likelihood

I suspect the livelihood of the grave is also fairly minimal

I assume that charges to visit, if there are any (I have no idea) are used primarily to maintain the area where it is.

rambam’s whole issue with praying at graves is how minimal the livelihood at graves is

Oh. I thought he was worried about “and no one knows the location of his grave up to today”-type stuff.

Not to mention the whole "Here is what I, Rambam, wrote for the plebes" vs "what I, Rambam, wrote for the intellectuals" bit.

He's not the beginning or middle, either.

There’s often a strong belief that we don’t and CAN’T know much about God, so any description is inadequate and likely wrong in some way. Almost a flip side of atheism: admits contradictions but says the concept of God is so big that our assumptions are too limited. 1/

I’ve seen a lot of Problem of Evil arguments basically use a Christian idea of God, even while insisting it was “Abrahamic”, and take a Person-God approach.