When I see senior people in firms complain that juniors don't want to go back to the office I always think how being at home often helps juniors get their stuff done (task based jobs) but makes it harder for seniors (cos so much of your stuff is meetings/decision making that's easier face to face).
For me, I have less distractions at home and can focus. This allows me to knock out projects quicker. The days I’m in the office I constantly have people stopping by my desk, interrupting whatever focus I had. My productivity is much lower in the office because of the constant distractions.
I am the guilty party here cos in offices I love popping by people's desks and brainstorming stuff. It's probably good for the world that Idon't work in an office any more...
I understand this somewhat but as a senior leader in an agency, it seems to me that the juniors lose more by not being seen than seniors. So while the preference may be for them to stay home it appears to have a negative impact on their careers.
So all that matters is visibility not actual productivity and work outcomes? Sounds like senior leaders only care about brown nosing and aren't actually looking at the data of what their team is doing. Face time means nothing if the worker is bad at their job and unlikable except to management.
For what it's worth I agree with you. But there has to be a culture within the company that values competence over likability to managers.
I think WFH has shown how little middle-managers actually do and how unnecessary they can be in a lot of cases. The people I know who are pushing for return to the office are the ones who's jobs are in jeopardy because of WFH policies. Face time only matters to micro managers.
Yes but also that tells you how much favoritism goes on by the sheer fact of “face time”. It’s absolutely proving that work ethic and outcomes aren’t what makes management remember you exist.
Yep. It takes real leadership from the top to combat this culture and if you work for an "old school" CEO it won't happen. The organization has to care about balancing it.
Yeah, and then you get all those subtle networky things like after office drinks (so ppl who don't drink or have caring responsibilities are disadvantaged).
100% I have personally seen ppl who don't fit in with the culture of the rest of the team (bc of age, ethnicity, religion, whatever) get left behind or isolated and don't get promoted the same way.
The skill of a good manager is spotting that that's happening and adjusting the way things are done - even if it's something basic like not just giving out bottles of fizz when someone does something good.
I’ve worked in small and large places and there usually isn’t a lot of internal training on HOW to manage employees. How to be a leader. How to strategize. How to manage the work. It’s a gap that has ripple effects in my opinion - depending on the company.
I feel quite lucky in having had a lot of that kind of training, but agree it's much rarer than it should be!
I think we’re seeing the results (lack of promotion/upward growth) and drawing the conclusion about in office vs remote, but the reality could be mgmt that doesn’t actually know how to assess their employees effectively.
Yes, that's exactly it. Mgmt/leadership needs to set an example. I haven't seen much of it in my experience in Advertising but maybe other industries/agencies are better.
I had a discussion during lockdown with an exec who was lamenting how much harder it was to connect over zoom vs in the office. And I said “I think that’s an amazing lesson you shared, I imagine all our global coworkers have experienced this and we can now have empathy”. He was… not pleased.
This is true! And a lot of WFH/office discussions assume causation where there's merely corrolation. (Just read an article about a company making a profit based on back to the office when what the company was saying was NOT THAT)
Yes. And if you’re not going to get promoted anyway, there’s no reason to put up with the daily face to face politiking
Excellent point, dang. Thank you!
I'm with the boomers on this one. I do not get the appeal of never leaving your house and never seeing your coworkers face to face. Hell, I met my wife and a lot of my friends from various jobs over the years. There needs to be some kind of compromise because while popular, WFH isnt for everyone
Absolutely not. I don't like people being forced back into offices when they've realised they work better and happier at home tho. I feel flexilibity should be the lesson rather than "office best" or "home best"
Wait that was gramatically confusing I am agreeing with you that WFH isn't for everyone!!
This is LinkedIn-worthy good stuff (yes that’s a thing, I *have* read good takes there on occasion!)
That's a great point! Tasks are a different category by seniority so ambiance should be different. Tbh though even with meetings, i prefer to be home.
I guess the key thing is for an org to have open conversations and not just make up their minds what they want to do and try to force everyone. So, teams compromising on what works best for most for eg. Never gonna be perfect for everyone obv but I think the mandates are what stress people out.
I do think that not all senior staff are comfortable with meetings on Teams, etc. being transcribed and/or recorded. Face to face meetings usually have few minutes and those that are are agreed and signed off. Less deniability for senior management in the digital age.
So I wonder, how much is "I think we'd be more productive in the office as a company" vs "I want an easier life doing my job/I think EYE would be more productive"
This may be industry specific and personality specific of course but eg in publishing an editor gets more done at home in most cases but a publisher might find it harder (decision making over zoom not always the easiest for eg cos you miss all the little facial cues)
Yeah, from personal experience and lots of conversations, lockdown was really tough on managers. (Like, obvs it wasn't much fun for anyone.) Part of that was unfamiliarity and can be mitigated with different working practices, but I think there's still a core that's simply much harder.
Definitely something to this, but with a global workforce you're on screen in meetings whether you're in the office or not.
I’d also throw into that: As an artist/writer, I find in person meetings with publishers way, way, waaaaaay more productive.
Yeah, i think creative meetings tend to flow better in person. Going in for a layouts meeting so much better than a zoom one
There’s definitely an element of “it works best for me, so therefore…” Personally, I’d love to see more emphasis on flexibility based on personal productivity and what’s happening on a particular day.
Lots of creative meetings with discussion? Come in. Got the lurgy but ok to work? Stay at home and pop up on Zoom as needed. Living in a shared house so wfh means wf bedroom? Come in as much as you like. Need some time with no interruptions? Work remotely. Need company for accountability? Come in.
Personally, I’m discovering that I work from productively but not if I’m at home all the time - I need variety and also separation of work and leisure.
I think you're spot on. The work I do these days involves sensitive personal data - it's far less of a risk to have this open at home where only I can see it, than in an office where any nosy parker could walk past and see my screen.
You are correct. My husband is in upper management for the government. He works from home and I don’t have people in the house due to the sensitivity of his job. They want them in office next month, so the peace he’s had will be gone. I’m his only “coworker”/“IT” person. 🤣
That hadn't occurred to me! Interesting! Yes - I have a whole separate rant about the problems of open plan offices in terms of people feeling watched...but also getting sick cos they are petri dishes!
My entire team (handling FOI/DPA stuff) now works from home primarily. It means if we need to have a discussion about something sensitive or complex, we just boot up Teams and have a video call, where nobody can overhear anything. Especially handy if you have SAR requests from staff!
During the height of the pandemic summer, a member of my team mentioned he had the window open and the neighbours (furloughed or retired) had said they could hear (his side of) all his work calls.
Do you not have privacy screens at work?
It's all hot desking, so no. But also, they're not always effective - stand at the right angle and they don't work anymore. Also, sometimes you have to discuss sensitive information (personal and commercial) with colleagues and, with limited meeting room space, that's easier to do remotely.
One thing to add is that the civil service has been downsizing a lot, moving to smaller offices with fewer facilities. Factor in the rise of teams being split nationally or even internationally, and if you're all on virtual calls anyway, what good is the office?
I think it does have broader applications. One of the most draining aspects of remote working as a manager for me was peoples' default tendency to start ask via email questions that they would have previously raised in-person/by phone
What used to be 2 minute informal chats ended up as me having to spend 10 mins making sure my reply couldn't be misinterpreted if it was ever subject to FOI
My partner has a pretty senior 'talky' role and is 3 days wfh,2 office. She says she's definitely more productive than if she was full time office bound. The commute is the issue.
I think there's also an element of 'what to I prefer' Vs 'what's more productive' and people claim 2 when they mean 1. And if your employer thinks you're more productive in the office/hybrid they're allowed to say you have to come in sometimes (equally, you're allowed to look for a different job!)
Fundamentally work is a thing they have to pay you to do and they're allowed to say that part of what they're paying you for is physical presence. You can then decide what you want to do about that. It's a business transaction and everyone should be upfront about that and get less weird about it.
I think the shift, though, is that some people are genuinely more productive at home - and now know that to be true. In-office days can involve another few hours after ‘work’ finishing up the day’s load, plus the added bonus of needing to commute and losing time in both directions.
That's not my point though. If your employer wants you in the office because they think it's better for the business then that's their prerogative. They may, for example, believe that even if individuals are more productive at home, the team works better with in-person interaction...
... Or they might be wrong about where people are more productive. But you can then decide that in that case you don't want the job, or that you don't want the job without more pay. That's all fine and normal. Turning it into a culture war is the weird bit!
I think the fact that I got so many responses to what was essentially a brainfart about publishing shows that it's definitely been blown out of all proportion as an opposition of belief systems. When it's all capitalism which must fall ;)
IMHO buggest driver of bosses saying "everybody back in the office" is they are incompetent, and gauge productivity by headcount at desks, rather than output and outcome
Lots of older leaders find it hard to a) lose the control being in an office brings and b) flex their leadership style to embrace new ways of working. It's about their inadequacies or fears and not about reality. It certainly isn't really about productivity.
I think the control thing is an interesting one - not just about age but when you're senior, WFH for juniors does mean a lot more letting go, and that takes confidence and as you say flexibility. And yes fear in the manager vs reality of what staff do.
In the minds of dumb CEOs, working from home is bad. But working from Bangalore is fine.
Objections to working from home are a combination of age and Theory X management (all workers are intrinsically lazy, motivated only by fear, and need monitoring and micromanagement). It's potentially a major internet benefit, with major energy savings.
I think you've also got to take into account that when you are younger and learning a job, being at home can be detrimental. Sometimes you need to be in the office to learn the role. I am all for hybrid working and do so, but find that when you have apprentices you need to be there for them.
Yes - it def depends on teh role. EG designers often learn by looking over one anothers shoulders which is harder to replicate digitally.
I work on a bit of a tech team, but we def do a lot of problem solving. I often ‘virtually’ sit next to a colleague in a teams call. We can then screen share when needed to share or ask for advice. Works well.
I think senior people are also (in general) far less adept at using modern collaboration tools. I lead a team of 6 and we all grew up in the digital era—videoconferencing, screen sharing, living documents, etc. are all far more conducive to collaboration and decision making than a conference room
Also, seniors are trading macro-organizational info, which works very well across a table. Task-focused work does not benefit from that construct. The leaders who can't see the distinction prove they do not know their workers' products, and will certainly lose out when competing for talent.
I'm a remote manager. The biggest difference between my time as a junior and the current juniors is that my "open door" means they are expected to ping me with questions, not sit struggling. Unlike my seniors, I will never make them feel "dumb" for being inexperienced.
As a “senior” person, I can say that we don’t all fall in the same bucket. Equally, not all juniors get “stuff done” at home. Employers need to make rational decisions based on results. IMHO hybrid works well when managed well. See you at the office, sometimes! 👵🏼
Oh yeah there will be so many variables. I'm mostly thinking of my own experience as a manager in publishing vs editors doing the editing, will vary based on personality, industry etc etc.
Yep. One size doesn’t fit all. WFH was a game changer. Instead of going back, why not see the ways that can be productive?
I don't have an office job any more but can def see a mix being useful. Just that the pressure to go back to the office isn't always for the good of the people being forced!
It is also a lot more difficult to manipulate and bully people over a zoom call.
I think to some extent it should be what works best for the individual, I choose to go in the office most days (unless I have a parcel being delivered etc), because I work better there with less distractions. Days when my colleagues come in are really productive- some stuff is easier done F2F
Flexible work models work for everyone. Autocrats disagree.
it also highlights how nobody wants to work under assholes in the office. If the CEO and managers were awesome everyone would be falling over themselves to get back to the desk
Some at S's company lost their mojo working from home in lockdowns, 1 team in particular seemed to get nothing done & their manager was eventually fired because of it! Work/life balance not always better w/out an office, S can't switch off if WFH so as soon as he was allowed in the office he went.
And for me, this is the core element of the necessary policy. We talk about diversity of thought a lot (as well as other levels of diversity), and the right policy is 'work from a location and in a style that allows you and your team to succeed'. One policy fits all always sucks.
Yeah, I think in the end the key thing is no one being forced to do something that's unhelpful for them. So, a mass "back to the office" policy bad, as is not making suitable workspaces in the office available (vs ppl having to fight for rare hot desk spaces)
Oh yeah, S would *not* put up with hot desking, he has his organised* workbench next to his desk with his monitors how he likes them...woe betide anyone that moves anything 😅 His place wants all in 3 days a week but are flexible, some turn up at 11am, as long as they're doing the work! *Mulder style
Meanwhile I have my mess and no one must move my mess lol.
My Preciouss Mess... I've never worked at a desk in an office, only ever had a public/student facing desk, so it takes a great deal of empathy for me to commiserate if someone has used his soldering iron...I can't even leave a cuppa on my desk unattended! No mess allowed on my desk.
Odd. Most old farts are more than happy to work from home. We don't have waste hours in transit and being old, the social stuff is not important (been there, done that). If you have kids, being able to work from home is all good. If not, WTF are task based jobs?
Don't worry. We'll all die off soon. A Senior
Not that kind of senior! Managers!!!
I know, honey. But I was once one of the other kind. Briefly.
YES, this! My CEO is incredibly pro-office, but all their work involves meetings. For all the staff busy processing transactions, making slide decks, updating budgets etc, home can be much more productive. And of course, the less you're paid, the more transport costs hurt.
Our senior telework , lower staff telework new staff trains for 2 months then teleworks . We fought very hard and had to proof our compliances and earned it but we are “ reminded “ by executives that it’s a privilege not a right .
If I could find something remote pays same and same health insurance I would be out . Most jobs beside certain types of industries can be done telework and the productivity is better . It’s a better balance then always being 9-5 stuck in a office