As I've said many times, the problem with declaring Israel's actions last year to be genocide (they were war crimes, but not genocide) is that now that Israel has escalated to *actual ethnic cleansing* there is no way to accurately convey the escalation.
So how does one describe war crimes that are extremely likely to escalate to genocide? I guess I'm not yet super-convinced of the value of being able to say "well, it's not genocide yet, just some light crimes against humanity"
As far as I can tell the main value of "genocide" is that we're culturally conditioned into thinking it's something we need to do something about, while war crimes are just things that happen
Except that if we keep misusing the word the way it was in 2024, genocide will become something that just happens, just like war crimes.
I'm sorry to say, genocide is already something that just happens (Myanmar, Sudan, ...). Whatever special meaning it had wore off quite a while ago.
I think you did a pretty good job of describing it yourself: "war crimes (that if allowed to continue) are extremely likely to escalate to genocide." That's why the election was a failure. We gave up on the people trying to stop it and allowed the guy that encouraged it back into office.
I think where we differ a lot is that I have very little confidence in Harris counterfactuals, especially when expressed as "it would be a continuation of Biden". (Especially since we were told repeatedly Israel is sovereign and does what it wants.)
So, to be honest, a lot of this discourse feels like "it can't have been genocide in the Biden era, because that would mean Biden allowed a bad thing to happen." It's pretty clearly a continuum to me.
If anything this will make some people assume they’re DEESCALATING what they’re doing, since “forcing people out of Gaza” isn’t nearly as bad as “genociding every resident of Gaza.”
Exactly. Israel has dramatically escalated since February, but we pinned the needle to eleven last year.
Try "by accelerating genocidal actions, Israel is hastening the end of their final plan for Gaza"
And also it's TOO LATE now even if we COULD speak clearly about it. The time we (decent Americans) had any leverage at all was last year and people decided to vote for, you know, not that. So we can call it whatever we like but the worst people in the world are driving now so...
They all said it couldn't possibly get worse than Genocide Joe and Holocaust Harris. And so here we are.
"Oh, so you want a smaller genocide?" That one always blows my mind, because they're literally asking "Oh, so you want to save lives?" But these people only think in absolutes. Saving lives doesn't move the needle for them, a "larger genocide" doesn't bother them.
and the only answer is "what I 'want' doesn't enter into it. I'm not the person who decides what happens. I'm a voter. I have one little tiny bit of power and I take that seriously."
I've said it before and will say it a million times if needed: if you prefer a world where you are "innocent" in the death of 50,001 over a world where you bear complicity in the death of 50,000, you are putting your ego and "clean hands" over the life of a human being
He who saves one life saves the whole world. It’s Jewish scripture and in the Koran. So yes, even 1 life saved is worth it.
* and l am not religious anymore. Only l think this ancient wisdom was against the human frailty to make better enemy of the good, or moral pride enemy of doing what you were actually in power to do.
Right. You can leave the theology out of it and still see that people everywhere worked through these very basic and serious ideas a very long time ago, probably as soon as we lived in big groups!
That’s why l am grateful my circumstances pushed me towards learning ancient cultures. Human nature “evolution” is very slow so what was true 5000 years ago is still true now. There are essential truths within religious and not-religious texts old. Tech changes are much faster than human psyche
It sure seems that way to me. I can't do ALL the good, as much as I might want to, but that's a poor excuse not to do as much good as I can. But people didn't see the point in voting for as much good as they could get, so now we all have to deal with the greater evil.
I think people who truly care voted the right way. And those who didn’t or advocated doing otherwise had ulterior motives. The latter group should be ostracized from any righteous movement unless they admit their mistake.
Do you know where this was published?
www.nytimes.com/interactive/...
This was the exact problem with people calling W Bush a Nazi.
I mean, he did set up an illegal torture program.
I think this discussion is a rhetorical sideline, if you agree there is currently a genocide and the actions that other people called genocide are part of the same military operation of the thing you agree to be genocide. You have to be able to call out things as being genocidal before a genocide.
But this relies on heuristics and can sometimes give a false positive. Not in this case obviously, but it can and you have to accept that. Telling people off for being early to say 'this is genocide' rather than 'this is about to be genocide' seems crazy once you agree that it is in fact genocide.
Not genocide? Nah, it was and this isn't an escalation but a continuation of the plan which was always genocide.
So you're actively denying that the Palestinians are suffering more now than they were 6 months ago?
I dunno, maybe ask the thousands of dead Palestinians if they are suffering more now. 🙄
Your rationale makes it sound like things haven't gotten much, much worse in Palestine, despite the fact that things have gotten much, much worse in Palestine.
These idiots painted themselves into a rhetorical corner, but because they're unable to admit error, they're stuck there.
You might just be the idiot.
Rhetorical error? How very PC of you. 🙄 Israel has always wanted to obliterate the Palestinians. I am stuck nowhere, it is you who is stuck not facing this is all a part of the same plan, FFS
If you believe that, and you obviously do, you're making it abundantly clear that you're nothing more than an ignorant antisemite. 🖕
When you don't make sense, you resort to "antisemite". You are an idiot.
Rationale? What are you talking about? This was always Israel's plan! The ultimate genocide and expulsion, and takeover of Gaza. This has nothing to do with rationale.
Then why wait until Trump was in office and then start making things so much worse? Why not be as bad as possible right from the start?
I don't even know what you are trying to ask here. But it's bizarre. Worse according to whom? The dead kids and families? It's pretty worse for them a long time ago. Worse for the ones who have survived so far? WTF are you asking.
Worse according to aid organizations. bsky.app/profile/mike...
Let’s just agree that what’s happening now is genocide, and you can tell us when you think the genocide started.
I believe that for those of us in the US it doesn't matter so much when the genocide started, because that's on Israel. What should matter to us is when our government switched from failing to restrain Israel to actively encouraging them. On that, the line is clear and many warned it would happen
I don't know when the genocide started, but I know that things have gotten dramatically worse since Trump took office. I don't know what's worse than a genocide, but if it was genocide under Biden, it's worse than genocide now.
And the thing is, so many folks don't *want* to accurately convey the escalation because they want to pretend that what's going on now is the exact same policy as the previous admin's, despite the enormous gulf of sunlight between them.
Forgive me, but: This.
I've lost count how many times I've been called a genocide denier simply because I tried to acknowledge that no matter how bad it was, allowing Trump back in office would make it worse. And here we are and those people have either gone quiet or just doubled down and it's hard to see how we fix it.
I was in some thread where someone was saying "We need a word stronger than genocide to describe what Israel is doing now." Maybe if they hadn't been calling it genocide since day one they'd have more headroom to describe Israel's blockade and military escalation, but that bridge is burnt.
Or, it *has* been genocide from the beginning and you’ve been engaged in a No True Scotsman fallacy all along. 1) There can be *gradations* of evil, even in genocides. 2) *Official* rhetoric out of Israel at the very beginning was genocidal in tone.
Yes, Israel's rhetoric from the beginning has been clear.
This is a great point. They started off defending themselves and going after Hamas which was legitimate. Even as they continued to escalate it probably did not qualify as genocide until a bit more recently. It is why we have to use words and terms carefully and responsibly.
And maybe Israel is really just misunderstood...and hasn't killed 1000's of civilians
I didn't say that, I'm saying that starting off with the accusation of genocide doesn't give you a lot of room to expand when things get worse. Things are absolutely getting worse in Palestine, but the pro-Pali crowd is stuck using the same words and phrases they have been for nearly two years now.
Sort of a boy who cried wolf situation.
When you describe everything as a meltdown, what word do you use to describe a meltdown? How do you differentiate when you've already rejected the differences?
Imagine if the plot of the first Iron Man movie involved Thanos wiping out half the universe. Nowhere else for the next 21 movies to go.
