does a third party get to keep track of data and look into accidents or is it all still on “just trust me bro”? iirc the griping is also about how they add to congestion and have elaborate accountability sinks ultimately downwind of feeling like there’s a toothless regulator asleep at the wheel
I'm in the current CA service area and yeah increase in VMT and using streets for storage are clear issues. On the accountability side, in CA they have to report every collision to the DMV and by all appearances they do: www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehic...
Nope, Waymo only has to report to DMV collisions that happen on their Test permit, not their Deployment permit used during commercial ridehail and which accounts for >90% of their robot VMT in California. Lawsuit implies/alleges Waymo may not fully disclose as required: bsky.app/profile/anic...
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. But I can't quickly find the current rules for deployment but the new proposed regulation seems to have the same form OL 316 reporting requirements for “deployed” AVs? www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/...
No, the DMV reporting requirement is specific to Test permits not Deployment permits, unlike the NHTSA ADS crash reporting requirements. Hundreds of Waymo ADS crashes have been reported to NHTSA but not to DMV via OL 316, as can be confirmed by diffing their publicly available Waymo reports.
FWIW, "deployed" (lower case) does not mean operating on a "Deployment" permit. It just means operating on the public roads as opposed to registered w the DMV under the permit (Test or Deployment) but not in use on the relevant permit. Regs written by lawyers to employ lawyers.
Is there any authorized way to operate an AV on public roads other than under a testing or deployment permit?
In California in theory, no. In practice, there isn't a tight definition or objective test of "AV" so if you have a person in the driver's seat and you and DMV don't call it an AV, then you can add whatever hw & sw you want to your otherwise street legal car and use it without a DMV AV permit.
FWIW, Tesla is doing this now with their new ridehail service with apparent DMV acquiescence, ie not an AV and not requiring a DMV AV permit, and Uber tried to do it in 2016 but DMV did call Uber's system an AV and shut them down. www.theguardian.com/technology/2...
Yeah I noticed that Tesla had a California AV testing permit but reported zero collisions and zero miles driven for years. They're obviously bad actors, but I feel Waymo and Zoox have handled their rollouts pretty responsibly
California's regulations invite abuse. They also make it impossible for police to cite uncrewed robots for moving violations, so Waymo robots have driven on the wrong side of the street in front of SFPD without being ticketed for it. Lotta ppl thought GM Cruise was pretty responsible, until not.
Yeah you're right — I guess the underlining means this is a proposed new addition to the California regulations and it will be a good thing when this is adopted
Yes, you are looking at proposed regs. The existing OL 316 reporting requirement is specified in this section:
Re safety, as a pedestrian or bicyclist I am WAY less scared of a Waymo AV than a human-operated vehicle.... Every collision report is something like this:
lol and the equivalent for a human cab driver would never get reported. it’s a tricky issue! hard to get over my deep distrust of the companies involved. i rode in a waymo exactly once and it felt unsettling mostly because it felt like i had less control over getting out (“eh here’s fine thanks!”)
most people are ideologically incapable of parsing this argument but “if it adds net new private cars to the road then it is a catastrophe” is probably the strongest objection
you'd think they could drive off into a garage inside a hill or something!
the congestion worry sounds overblown until they're present at such a big scale that the policy questions around them are very different. I would like to see third party monitoring
i thought i saw a post this or last year about how waymos deadheading around big events clogged the streets, tho that applies as equally to uber the other “regulator asleep at the wheel” story broadly we can prob all agree that “your very own on demand private car but cheaper!” is a disaster 😝
One really interesting thing about Waymo in San Francisco at least is that they are now the second biggest ride share service (behind Uber, ahead of Lyft) and they are more expensive than Uber/Lyft by a healthy amount.