We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake. ~ Catherine Fahringer
Replies
We would have warp drive by now....
aug 24, 2025, 1:28 pm • 0 0 • view
And "christian nationalists" want to do it again. We should always expect the Spanish Inquisition (in some form)
aug 23, 2025, 9:21 pm • 1 0 • view
It’s all about control. Intelligent, questioning people are a threat to that control.
aug 24, 2025, 12:50 am • 0 0 • view
You mean like what’s happening now and a small group of pseudo christians are dragging science back again???
aug 23, 2025, 8:45 pm • 2 0 • view
now Trump and RFK Jr are going to do the same
aug 23, 2025, 11:38 pm • 0 0 • view
I’m sure the Church was following guidance from their assorted Bibles and Divine interpretations. After all - lots of wisdom there; kill all who disagree with you. How can you argue with the current ‘God’s’ word. So much hasn’t really changed. But now we legislate controls instead of actual killing
aug 23, 2025, 5:10 pm • 2 0 • view
Even now there are people who think the bible should be the only thing we live by. Screw that
aug 23, 2025, 9:51 pm • 0 0 • view
And they keep doing it, over and over again.
aug 24, 2025, 4:46 am • 0 0 • view
Like Baghdad, Iraq during the Islamic Golden Age, the "City of Wisdom". Lost its role as the world's center of learning after the Mongol invasion in 1258. & like Trump doing to US, lead the destruction of its great mathematics, astronomy & medicine libraries & the death of its intellectual leaders.
aug 23, 2025, 7:17 pm • 2 0 • view
Yep!!!
aug 23, 2025, 5:39 pm • 1 0 • view
The underlying premise of that is that if Western Europe was not "doing science", Eastern Europe/Islam/China couldn't be. Obviously untrue. And in Western Europe, can only think of Bruno who burned. Bacon or Copericus didn't.
aug 23, 2025, 5:25 pm • 7 0 • view
Copernicus wasn’t persecuted because he only published shortly before his death of natural causes.
aug 23, 2025, 11:28 pm • 0 0 • view
How do you know he would have been persecuted if he lived? Seems you are assuming what you need to prove. (The Church, ie Catholicism, seemed to think his ideas silly, not dangerous.)
aug 24, 2025, 6:50 am • 0 0 • view
I only point out that Copernicus wasn’t persecuted because he wasn’t available. Perhaps he would have agreed to keep silent as Galileo did at first, recanting heliocentrism to be possibility rather than fact. No way to know and no way to prove it. We only know other heretics were persecuted.
aug 24, 2025, 9:12 am • 1 0 • view
It’s reasonable to assume that championing a heliocentric truth that conflicted with Biblical truth would not have been tolerated, as the Church was not tolerant of unorthodoxy. Evidence: the Roman Inquisition to combat the Protestant heresy was established the year before Copernicus died.
aug 24, 2025, 9:12 am • 0 0 • view
Why do you think the Church found heresy silly rather than dangerous? If they thought heliocentrism absurd it’s because it contradicted God’s truth. If they thought it silly they would have ignored it. If they thought it dangerous they would have suppressed it, which is in fact what they did.
aug 24, 2025, 9:12 am • 0 0 • view
I don't think they had no problem with heresy. I think its very telling you focus so strongly on Galileo, who (1) was not in the Dark Ages by even most generous definition, (2) wasn't burned. Nothing to say re de Cusa, Grossetest, Bacon, importation of work of Greek & Arab writers?
aug 24, 2025, 9:27 am • 0 0 • view
Not at all true. I focused on Copernicus because that is the name you mentioned to contrast with Bruno. You will see this is true if you simply revisit my first post. You seem to be arguing with someone else?
aug 24, 2025, 9:40 am • 0 0 • view
I said, "Bacon or Copericus didn't." As in didn't get burned. You moved on quickly from Copericus to Galileo, who also didn't get burned and isn't from the Dark Ages by any definition. You completely ignored Bacon. You seem to be reading off a script and not arguing at all.
aug 24, 2025, 9:46 am • 0 0 • view
I moved from the dead Copernicus to fate of Galileo because you demanded “proof”. It was a way to demonstrate the reasonable assumption that Copernicus would have been treated the similarly had he lived. Neither was Dark Ages so I don’t know why you mention that.
aug 24, 2025, 10:04 am • 0 0 • view
Except the Church allowed speculation. You could theorise all you liked as long as you did not insist it was true. Galileo not only said he was correct (even in things that we don't think correct), he satirised the pope. And still didn't burn.
aug 24, 2025, 9:18 am • 0 0 • view
Heliocentrism was speculation in Copernicus’s writings, but Galileo had evidence in the form of a Jovian central system. He provided proof that was confirmed by Jesuit astronomers. And yet his speculations were suppressed.
aug 24, 2025, 9:48 am • 0 0 • view
Yes. Irrelevant however to the original claim that science didn't exist in the Dark Ages. If anything its counter evidence to that claim, since Galileo was drawing on the theories of others who actually were working in the (long) Dark Age.
aug 24, 2025, 9:51 am • 0 0 • view
I never claimed science didn’t exist in the Dark Ages, so your beef is with someone else.
aug 24, 2025, 10:07 am • 0 0 • view
Yes. The person I replied to.
aug 24, 2025, 10:22 am • 0 0 • view
The moons of Jupiter weren't evidence of heliocentrism in any way, since they were equally compatible to any other model of the time, and certainly to the Tychonic, the consensus model of the time. bsky.app/profile/mich...
aug 24, 2025, 11:50 am • 2 0 • view
I’m reluctant to disagree with a historian, but were not the discovery of bodies orbiting Jupiter a repudiation of the theory that all heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth, as the Church was insisting upon the Ptolemaic model during the 16th century?
aug 24, 2025, 11:15 pm • 0 0 • view
Even in the Ptolemaic model, all the planets didn't *just* revolve around the Earth, they revolved on an epicycle on a deferent, or on a system of a few epicycles. As mentioned in the linked thread, some Astronomers saw Jupiter's moons as the first empirical evidence of epicycles. ...
aug 25, 2025, 8:53 pm • 0 0 • view
Such as?
aug 24, 2025, 9:16 am • 0 0 • view
Are you seriously asking for documentation of persecution of heretics in the 16th Century? I hope you understand that persecution wasn’t limited to burning, right?
aug 24, 2025, 9:24 am • 0 0 • view
I do hope you understand the question is not persecution of heretics in 16th century, but the idea that science did not occur between the fall of Rome and the 16th century.
aug 24, 2025, 9:29 am • 1 0 • view
Who knew Trump would be doing the same.
aug 24, 2025, 3:38 pm • 0 0 • view
Ch.22, Volney’s Ruins of Empires (1791), translated by Thomas Jefferson (1802): “The whole history of religion is only the history of the errors of the human mind which imagines causes, build systems, then, finding one defective, destroys it for another not less so.”
aug 24, 2025, 7:59 am • 0 0 • view
Ch.21, Volney’s Ruins of Empires (1791), translated by Thomas Jefferson (1802): “Pious men! Who speak of God with so much certainty and confidence. Help us to understand how an abstract being you call God or Soul can exist without a body, life without organs or sensations.”
aug 24, 2025, 7:56 am • 0 0 • view
💯 BTW, I don’t believe in Thor either.
aug 23, 2025, 8:37 pm • 2 0 • view
Yeah? So....what? Everyone else who wasn't white and didn't have the Church, what about them?
aug 24, 2025, 5:07 am • 0 1 • view
Okay. Are we morally advanced enough to handle A. I. and Nuclear weapons? If not then perhaps we should be glad science is lagging? I once told a room full of AI phd’s they should get a masters on philosophy before they even thought creating an AGI. 1/2
aug 23, 2025, 7:15 pm • 0 0 • view
They responded that client change would kill us first. We are not ready for the science we have.
aug 23, 2025, 7:17 pm • 0 0 • view
We need a new myth, one to integrate them beyond the paradox of saying so. This aim to reduce all of Reality to some idealism or monism is the problem, not the solution. We need a better myth to see why this is true, to look for the Phoenix, i.e. Para-Pluralism: www.youtube.com/@M.BrianPalm...
aug 23, 2025, 11:35 pm • 0 0 • view
This is not true. Physics, especially w this TOE & Sky God in Ram nonsense, paint Western Science a dogmatic dead end of EXACTLY the same character as the Medieval Schools. Physics is well a religion by now, AI is a cult of AUTOBIOCIDE. Faith & Reason have always been in a sick co-dependent dance.
aug 23, 2025, 11:31 pm • 0 0 • view
I look forward to the day when people no longer use religion as an excuse to treat fellow humans as social outcasts or as inferior in dignity and worth.
aug 23, 2025, 3:20 pm • 34 0 • view
I look forward to the day when people no longer use religion. Period.
aug 23, 2025, 11:18 pm • 1 0 • view
Possibly. But for centuries monasteries etc were also important centers of learning in a world dominated by warrior kings.
aug 23, 2025, 8:41 pm • 0 0 • view
That's bull$hit.
aug 23, 2025, 10:00 pm • 1 0 • view
AMEN!!!!!!
aug 23, 2025, 5:14 pm • 0 0 • view
The conflict between Galileo Galilei and the Catholic Church arose from his support of heliocentrism, which contradicted the Church's geocentric views. This led to his trial & house arrest, symbolizing the struggle between science & religious authority. Look familiar you Christofascismfuckers?
aug 23, 2025, 6:42 pm • 2 0 • view
They weren’t and are still not Christians. Ppl want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Jesus did not tell us to treat each other the way corporate religion has. Stop judging the book by the con artists that have twisted it.
aug 23, 2025, 10:52 pm • 0 0 • view
Wrong, they haven't held science back at all they've kept esoteric knowledge about God from you.
aug 24, 2025, 12:29 am • 0 0 • view
The existence of nature is supported by concrete evidence. No evidence a supreme ethereal deity, a God, exists. No Satan either! No concrete evidence of an old guy named "I AM" sitting in the sky watching people to decide whom he will favour, live well, and whom he will mistreat, kill, and die. Duh!
aug 23, 2025, 11:42 pm • 0 0 • view
I agree . Let's get religion out of politics and public school. Schools are for facts, not fiction.
aug 24, 2025, 8:52 am • 1 0 • view
Religion is a human construct designed to manipulate and control the gullible for the few. Knowledge is the antidote for Religion
aug 23, 2025, 6:24 pm • 1 0 • view
America today is said to be guided by religion. It is not It is guided by magic. Magic decides everything from health to economics. Science lost the election. Magic won. It is the throbbing uneducated racist half brain under the red MAGA hat. It's what they all believe. Bad news. Magic is not real
aug 23, 2025, 10:15 pm • 0 0 • view
Spot on! Thanks for posting (and for crediting the author!!)
aug 23, 2025, 7:37 pm • 0 0 • view
There are many legitimate reasons to bust on Roman Catholics, however...
aug 23, 2025, 7:18 pm • 1 1 • view
Personally I would say 2,000.
aug 23, 2025, 7:55 pm • 0 0 • view
Close to what?
aug 24, 2025, 4:35 am • 0 0 • view
I’m sure we’d have found another colossal ascientific waste of effort, but in this reality, religion is a big one.
aug 23, 2025, 7:32 pm • 0 0 • view
It chose and served a great ally: the sword
aug 24, 2025, 11:50 am • 0 0 • view
Also with tories destroying everything labour achieves just to suit their ideology!!!
aug 24, 2025, 2:49 pm • 0 0 • view
The Theft of Our Values www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPOM...
aug 23, 2025, 4:59 pm • 0 0 • view
Honestly, good thing they did. I'm not sure we are mature enough as a species for the tech we have now. We need to heavily invest in the culture tree.
aug 24, 2025, 2:11 am • 0 0 • view
Fuck’n Amen to that 👍
aug 23, 2025, 11:34 pm • 0 0 • view
aug 23, 2025, 5:46 pm • 1 0 • view
aug 23, 2025, 5:45 pm • 5 2 • view
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by Father in Heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them. Matthew-18:29 more bullshit
aug 23, 2025, 6:24 pm • 3 0 • view
“No dammit to hell, the sun revolves around the earth,” is among some of the more brilliant things the church has declared.
aug 23, 2025, 7:24 pm • 0 0 • view
I think the use of the word church encompasses only Christians. I would use the term religion. Science and art was going really well until the Abrahamic religions came along.
aug 23, 2025, 10:52 pm • 1 0 • view
Another uneducated atheists indulging in historical revisionism.
aug 23, 2025, 11:01 pm • 0 0 • view
No history was revised. Fahringer gave an opinion of where we might be IF history had been different.
aug 23, 2025, 11:41 pm • 0 0 • view
An interesting thought. I think bigger drivers in development are the various needs of people in different living environments. Climate, geography, ease of movement and food availability. But through time it feels like the military and war have driven science rapidly.
aug 24, 2025, 6:20 am • 0 0 • view
Doubt it. All Church did was drive science north. Newton wrote thesis on gravity instead of somebody named Maximilian Galliano. If there was a delay in scientific advancement, relatively brief. The death of medieval Hypatia was probably a bigger blow. Torn to death by Christians in Alexandria.
aug 23, 2025, 10:36 pm • 3 1 • view
Remember, there was a time religious men got their whitey tighties in a bunch over the number zero? Or when someone dared to say the Earth wasn’t the center of the solar system? Biggest procrastination on the human project ever.
aug 23, 2025, 3:08 pm • 18 1 • view
We're so Eurocentric and unwilling to properly critique Christianity that we are never told in school that the Dark Ages only occurred on one continent while much of the rest of the world flourished. And most Americans still don't know this. And they wouldn't like knowing the reason why.
aug 23, 2025, 4:02 pm • 19 0 • view
Well, there have been other dark ages, they're just mostly not as well documented. It's only a slight exaggeration to say that when great libraries are burned, dark ages follow. Often those are driven by forces from within a society, but occasionally from outside. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
aug 24, 2025, 3:41 am • 4 0 • view
One example of a dark ages imposed from the outside is the burning of the Aztec codices by the Spanish Catholic conquistadors. www.ninaevezeininger.com/trying-to-le...
aug 24, 2025, 3:43 am • 4 0 • view
I was down in Peru a couple of years ago looking at the all but completely demolished ruins of the Incan Empire and all I could think was, “The Spaniards were as awful as the Moguls. Maybe even worse.” Only Machu Picchu survived, and that’s because the Inca managed to hide it.
aug 24, 2025, 3:49 am • 2 0 • view
The only reason we have the Mayan ruins is because the empire had long since fallen by the time the Spaniards arrived, and the jungles had covered the cities, temples, and pyramids.
aug 24, 2025, 3:50 am • 3 1 • view
Still facts
aug 24, 2025, 4:56 am • 0 0 • view
aug 23, 2025, 8:18 pm • 2 0 • view
3000 if the Romans hadn't torched the library of Alexandria
aug 23, 2025, 8:17 pm • 1 0 • view
I have always thought religion is the root of all evil !
aug 23, 2025, 10:25 pm • 1 0 • view
TRUTH…We should be exploring the stars!!
aug 23, 2025, 6:17 pm • 4 0 • view
Rome officially made Christianity the state religion. Then a few generations later Rome fell and the Wrst collapsed into darkness. Paganism is western culture! Ha
aug 23, 2025, 3:25 pm • 6 0 • view
Yeah, we could have blown ourselves up 1200 years ago.
aug 24, 2025, 2:54 am • 0 0 • view
☠️👍👍👍 ABSOFUKKINLUTELY! 'religion' is the Root of All EVIL!👹👹👹
aug 24, 2025, 12:07 pm • 0 0 • view
I'm an atheist, but this is absolutely bullshit. If the church was really the cause of such a delay, then places like India or China would have been far ahead of Europe. The scientific revolution happened in Europe. Not in Japan, not in China, not in India, not in the Aztec empire.
aug 23, 2025, 10:24 pm • 1 1 • view
Great points. We also seem to conveniently forget that the message was usurped for their needs and wants. How can we possibly think Christians and Christianity followed the doctrine of Christ? Seems a little naive.
aug 23, 2025, 10:49 pm • 1 0 • view
The church is the cause in the delay, denial, and war on science. Three guesses why.
aug 23, 2025, 10:53 pm • 0 0 • view
If that was true, then the places where there was no Church would be far ahead of us. That's not the case. Hence, your affirmation is bullshit.
aug 23, 2025, 11:30 pm • 0 0 • view
"The war on science" has two causes : 1. private interests. Exemples : fossil fuel industry, tobacco industry, dictators and so on. 2. stupidity and ignorance. Exemples : antivax, antinuclear, anti-GMO, flat-earthers, astrology, sorcery and so on.
aug 23, 2025, 11:30 pm • 1 0 • view
Does the Church (which one by the way ?) ends up acting upon one of those two causes ? Yes, of course. But not more or less than any other human organisation.
aug 23, 2025, 11:30 pm • 0 0 • view
As for the original post, talking about "1500 years", it's absolutely bullshit and I would classify it in the "stupidity and ignorance". Because history is also a science. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sy...
aug 23, 2025, 11:30 pm • 0 0 • view
Even you can understand that was a metaphor, like getting kicked to kingdom come, just an expression, not literal like people take the Bible. I’m butting in because you could lighten up some. Dude! Nobody knows, we will never know in r lifetime so we should just honor this planet and live it.
aug 23, 2025, 11:38 pm • 0 0 • view
Nor in the Arab world, nor in Africa, nor in Australia... Europe. If the Church was such an intellectual disaster, all those places where it did not exist would be Wakanda or Atlantis. And that's not the case.
aug 23, 2025, 10:24 pm • 1 0 • view
I think you need to go back and sharpen your pencil on the Middle East. it was a much larger place before modern maps.
aug 23, 2025, 10:46 pm • 1 0 • view
And we would all be living until we are 150, right. A totally unscientific and unfounded conclusion.
aug 24, 2025, 1:30 am • 1 0 • view
Poppycock, if that were so nothing would stop the Byzantine Empire, sundry Muslim caliphates, African civilizations, and China from having science fiction technologies like so. Even in Western Europe a lot of knowledge building continued, albeit with far less rapid transmission than on Roman roads.
aug 24, 2025, 2:44 am • 0 0 • view
We've progressed too fast in some areas as it is. I am more pissed off about their monopoly on philosophy and ethics which have meant that we haven't really discussed morality without the church shutting down alternatives
aug 23, 2025, 6:02 pm • 2 0 • view
They're trying again
aug 23, 2025, 9:30 pm • 0 0 • view
A huge part of this was the establishment of medical colleges for men and the eradication of women as healers. So much wisdom lost.
aug 23, 2025, 3:11 pm • 11 0 • view
Another reason I despise the Roman Catholic Church, and all organized religion.
aug 23, 2025, 8:28 pm • 1 0 • view
History repeats
aug 24, 2025, 2:03 am • 0 0 • view
aug 23, 2025, 7:49 pm • 4 0 • view
Yup, religion should be banned, it's not good for you or your children's health... Plus, they seem to be infested with child molesters...
aug 24, 2025, 4:42 am • 0 0 • view
And we are going back again🤦
aug 23, 2025, 7:31 pm • 0 0 • view
I recommend David Hackett Fischer's book _Historians' Fallacies_, specifically the Fallacy of the Fictional Question. Any 'evidence' of what would have happened if Lincoln had lived can only be gathered from a universe in which he did not, so all conclusions are necessarily suspect.
aug 23, 2025, 11:45 pm • 0 0 • view
aug 23, 2025, 8:28 pm • 1 1 • view
Easily
aug 23, 2025, 10:14 pm • 0 0 • view
The unintelligent have always feared the minority intelligent.
aug 23, 2025, 9:40 pm • 0 0 • view
I don’t think so, pagan authoritarians have suppressed science too.
aug 26, 2025, 4:03 pm • 0 0 • view
I suggest you watch what you say, or you will be killed by those who have been swindling money from fools through religious scams. For over a thousand years, they have been robbing the whole world in the name of religion. Do you want to upset this balance?
aug 24, 2025, 1:33 am • 0 0 • view
Evangelicals support fascism
aug 23, 2025, 3:20 pm • 11 0 • view
we are headed to an era of religious warfare, maybe lets not rush into it.
aug 23, 2025, 4:58 pm • 1 0 • view
Seems unlikely given that people are people.
aug 24, 2025, 1:27 am • 0 0 • view
That is not the beginning,this started 6000 years ago with a cult in the area around Mongolia. I am writing a book,but it is going so slow that I may leave this place ,leaving manuscript and notes for children to throw away .....so no change in this lifetime,except for me becoming whole
aug 23, 2025, 6:16 pm • 1 0 • view
www.amazon.com/Brilliant-Ca...
aug 24, 2025, 9:02 am • 0 0 • view
& not to mention of the islamic repression & oppression on humanity and the human mind
aug 24, 2025, 9:31 am • 0 0 • view
There is definitely a good reason the period of maximum Church Control were called the Dark Ages.
aug 23, 2025, 3:59 pm • 8 0 • view
When do you think that period was?
aug 23, 2025, 8:06 pm • 1 0 • view
From the end of the Roman Empire in 476AD until the Renaissance.
aug 23, 2025, 10:01 pm • 2 0 • view
The height of the power of the medieval papacy was between say 1100-1300 peaking with Innocent III at 1198-1216. But that corresponds to the “high Middle Ages” which saw great advances in all sorts of ways in Western Europe including in science and technology.
aug 24, 2025, 10:56 am • 3 0 • view
Imagine how much progress could have been made without those superstitious and corrupt assholes harassing anyone who wouldn't bend the knee towards their idiocy. It's not surprising we got the reformation as soon as there was a printing press.
aug 24, 2025, 12:57 pm • 1 0 • view
In many cases it was the church structures themselves that enabled technological advance. One example is the development of blast furnaces and metallurgy by the Cistercians (see eg en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskill ) and arguably it was the Reformation that put a stop to such inventiveness.
aug 24, 2025, 1:04 pm • 1 0 • view
Funny how they call the 16th and 17th centuries the Scientific revolution. Enjoy your superstitions. Go peddle your myopic church propaganda elsewhere.
aug 24, 2025, 1:10 pm • 0 0 • view
Of course the scientific revolution made immense advances. But these advances were in many cases built on or at least partly anticipated by earlier work. The idea of dividing human history into watertight “periods” such as the dark ages or scientific revolution has long been abandoned by historians.
aug 24, 2025, 1:38 pm • 2 0 • view
A lot of people want to prop up the notion that the Church pushed scientific and other advancement. It's pure Christian Propaganda.
aug 24, 2025, 1:41 pm • 1 0 • view
But it is at least striking and indisputable that it is precisely in Western Europe where we think mostly of the church and its influence that modern science emerged and so vigorously developed. Correlation is not causation but the counterfactual, that the church inhibited it would be hard to show.
aug 24, 2025, 1:52 pm • 1 0 • view
The “church” considered broadly as an institution has existed for a long time and in many places and it is hard to draw completely comprehensive conclusions. Byzantium for example isn’t normally associated with significant scientific advances (but see people like Philoponus who influenced Galileo).
aug 24, 2025, 1:50 pm • 0 0 • view
And a lot of people want to prop up the notion that the church was some kind of anti-science monstrosity that killed geniuses - instead of employing them. It's pure anti-Christian propaganda. (And I speak as an atheist who despises organised religion.) Learn nuance. Also history.
aug 24, 2025, 4:11 pm • 0 0 • view
Amen to that, sister!
aug 23, 2025, 8:35 pm • 0 0 • view
aug 24, 2025, 12:37 pm • 0 0 • view
We would be ahead if the Germanic peoples hadn't burned and destroyed civilization and the libraries everywhere and killed everyone with the knowledge of the past. What we have was preserved by the monasteries and the Muslims.
aug 24, 2025, 12:52 am • 0 0 • view
It’s interesting that at one time Muslims were way ahead. But now…
aug 24, 2025, 9:22 am • 0 0 • view
Germanic peoples? Where and when?
aug 24, 2025, 9:21 am • 0 0 • view
The germanic tribes invaded the Roman Empire. They destroyed everything everywhere they went and only took the silver, gold and jewels that we see in the hoards we find at times that they buried.
aug 25, 2025, 1:31 pm • 0 0 • view
Other Empires including the Muslims valued knowledge and collected the books, as well as those with the knowledge to add to what they knew and we saw the advance of civilization from Sumer to Rome.
aug 25, 2025, 1:31 pm • 0 0 • view
All that was destroyed everywhere the Germanic and Scandinavian people went, and we see it replaced with iron age or even stone aged civilization for the next 500 years.
aug 25, 2025, 1:31 pm • 0 0 • view