As a Democrat I have vocally supported Palestine and opposed right wing Israel since being old enough to vote in 1988. I entirely agree that Democrats who have supported colonization and genocide in Palestine are in the wrong. Nonetheless I have always chosen to vote in coalition to defeat GOP

It is true that there are people who didn't vote for Harris over the genocide. It is also true that there are votes she would have lost if she criticized Israel. If Harris were tougher on Israel and lost a very close election we would never stop hearing that the Dems should have picked Shapiro.

83% of democrats wanted a ceasefire

I don't doubt that, but Democratic votes aren't enough to win the election. Harris was at a real disadvantage compared to Trump, who was allowed to say whatever each constituency wanted to hear. With Harris, every move to gain support in one direction hurt support in the other.

She never tried left

100% true, but that was because "the narrative" was that she was too liberal and needed to tack hard to the center. I am not arguing that she would have lost taking a strong stand against the genocide, only that we don't know. Israel has a permanent get out of jail free card with too many in the US.

I mean that’s not even what her own polling showed- she tacked center because she’s a centrist

To those who contend that Harris could have won the election had she gotten tougher with Israel and stopped arms sales and demanded Bibi be returned to face his corruption charges and so on...I don't think that's an accurate read on the situation. I would have loved to see those things, personally.

Agree with you. I wish we lived in a world where a candidate could take a clear, unwavering moral position against an obvious evil and win, but I'm not sure we do. I grew up in an evangelical Christian household and the belief that you never criticize Israel for anything is strong in the US.

It's really this simple - Gaza fractured the Democratic coalition. Elsewhere in the thread I mentioned Gaza was "weaponized"...when war flares up in the Middle East, one has to look carefully at the motivations of the participants. War kept Bibi out of jail, freeing hostages wasn't his top priority

But realistically, and this is my whole point here, there is a wing of the Democratic coalition that she absolutely needed to keep in the fold that she could not afford to lose if she wanted any chance at winning in this brief campaign.

Having a normal primary would have given Dems a chance to hash this out a little, someone would be disappointed in the end but at least it would have been debated.

Do I think Harris would have represented a glimmer of hope that US Israeli policy *for the first time* be changed to support justice in this conflict? I actually do think that, but I am absolutely certain that it would have been difficult.

Honestly I think a lot of folks just didn't see the depth of this division. In PA where I live, it was very vivid - plenty of support for Josh Shapiro as VP candidate specifically because of his pro-Israel lean, Summer Lee had a challenger for the same reason, and many others.

Incorrect. As a Democrat you have supported the genocide of Palestinians and have empowered the right wing in Israel. You don't get to claim support a policy you voted against.

Huh? Not possible to follow your logic here

No it isn't. You claimed to support something which you, in action, fought against. This suggests you are lying and also do not understand yourself.

Sorry, that's nonsense

No, it isn't. You just have an inflated sense of self. You judge yourself based on your thoughts. But that is unreasonable.

Every Black organizer recognizes this play. It’s the same shit Dr. King warned about in Letter from Birmingham Jail. #BlackSky

I have always understood GOP/fascists as the larger danger. Allowing their coup to succeed has hastened the liquidation of Gaza and the West Bank, and they're just getting started. And while the topic here is Palestine, there are other factors in play.

Same. That's why I quit supporting the Democrats when they actively said they wanted a GOP member in their cabinet, and wanted the GOP to help shape strategy. I don't collaborate with Nazis.

So, Palestine was effectively weaponized to deliver a Trump win, and "the left" is still irrevocably broken and sniping over the issue. It's perhaps convenient & compelling for each faction to blame the other, and...the people enacting the larger oligarchy couldn't be more pleased with this outcome.

You’re so right if we had fallen in line, come together, and said “yes Biden yes Harris yes to genocide”, we could have won, we could have beaten those nasty pro-genocide Republicans

Imagine if the Democratic Party had cared about stopping genocide there or about stopping oligarchy here. Either one of those priorities would have shifted their Gaza policy in a way that ended our participation in genocide and delivered them the election. Don't you wish that would have happened?

What a load of bullshit. Harris lost because she gave a middle finger to every core constituency and she/the Ds kept telling people that they weren’t suffering and that the majority economy is amazeballs oh and btw fuck immigrants and trans people and so on so people didn’t go out to vote for her.

I think the account to which you're responding is one of those reply guy accounts. 🤷

I kinda think they’re a maybe even paid troll actively trying to sow division and get Ds to suspect and blame Palestinians and anyone opposed to genocide tbh

Wouldn't surprise me. Either way, I blocked it.

It had precious little to do with Palestine.

this dipshit is a tarpit that just wants to fight cuz they think it's fun

Sure, so letting Trump win oughta show 'em.

Thinking any individual voter has the power to "let" anyone win is where your thought process is flawed here David. Even if they could go back in time and change their vote, no one has the power to change the outcome on their own. Except, perhaps, Joe Biden.

Nobody let him win except for the Democratic Party

Dipshit learn to read and think. Nobody「 let Trump win 」 except for fucking Biden, Harris, and the Ds.

You people are so fucking unserious. Keep pointing fingers at powerless people they abandoned though — I’m sure that’ll improve things going forward. Fucking asshole.

I'm sure letting Trump get everything he and Musk want right now is gonna show the GOP, eh? How many more unanimous consents are the Dems gonna keep offering up so as to rush the nominees through so they can take a long extended weekend?

THIS!!!

The people enacting the larger oligarchy includes Biden/Harris

Yeah, the fact that they wanted to confine the most horrendous visible violence to far-away countries rather than the imperial core is not a substantive advantage compared to actually opposing it.

What are you going on about?? We don't want genocide committed, period, and certainly not in our names and with our money. It's actually that simple. (Plus the burying of the pandemic and all the death, trauma, and harm that came from that endeavor.)

So as I read it, you're anti-MAGA. Good work

Joe Biden did all that.

Turn off Fox News, man

Listen, asshole. Happy to engage with folks who actually know what they're talking about. You are not that. Bye.

^ Artless MAGA troll, goodbye

Hi David, here's some tips from much more educated people than myself on how to avoid falling into this ugly habit of arguing that "the left" should be more unified and act as quickly as the Trump administration. www.whitesupremacyculture.info/urgency.html

There is an irrevocable split between liberals and the left because liberals demand that the left must shut up and do what they're told and the left is fundamentally opposed to doing that.

Even in their final days in office DemoKKKrats cared more about funneling billions of dollars into bombing brown ppl than saving you from fascism. but hey, the left's totally the issue huh?

As AIPAC bought seats in the House and the party failed to defend their incumbents, it became clear that oligarchy is deeply embedded in the Democratic Party.

You guys are really just going to blame anything but Harris running a shit campaign, being a shit candidate, and people angry over Biden's mishandling of the recovery

If you believe that Palestine made the difference in the 2024 election, you probably should have leaned on Democrats to stop supporting the genocide, eh? Pretty easy ask! "Stop supporting genocide and also you'll win the election!"

You don't care. We understand.

I see - you care so much about genocide that you enabled the election of people who will enthusiastically hasten it. Gold star for you, Arthur

So you like the slow genociders? The ones that literally destroyed an entire region and killed tens of thousands, paving the way for the next guy to continue? And you think you're smart? Moral? You're as immoral as you are stupid, David.

Pretending that I "like" genocide requires a museum-quality petulance. I won't pretend that you like Kushner-built condos when they go up, but now they will because you wouldn't sully yourself to use your vote against them. That's what's truly stupid

As opposed to the Biden/Harris rubble that the Gazans would get to live in? You lesser evil types are just evil. And you clearer like it. And those that caused it. You're out here championing them. Own it, kid.

So the blame falls on Democrats for not finding a strategy to keep the votes of people who oppose genocide.

That's exactly what they tried to do, and given responses here and elsewhere, that was not going to be possible. So the genuine enthusiasts of genocide were ushered into power, and they are Nazi-saluting in victory. Great work

Do a good job next time.

They tried how? Can you give any concrete examples of them trying?

Thought not

No it isn't. www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uVq...

The conference had 0 Palestinian speakers but an entire GOP night. Harris repeatedly stated she'd impose no further conditions on arms to Israel and told protesters "I'm speaking!" Democrats did not want the votes of people opposed to genocide.

If only we were good with genocide Things could have been so different

The actual left is still doing the mutual aid work we did while liberals took a four year nap while the Biden administration funded a genocide and deported more people than trump. Liberals are having a moral panic and taking zero action as usual.

And here’s the thing. Liberals, we fucking need you. Right now, we cannot afford to make anyone who isn’t an outright fascist our enemy. Whenever y’all are ready to stop blaming and start doing, there’s plenty of work to go around.

you dress it up as a grand scheme as if the Biden administration couldn't have prevented it by simply following existing law to stop providing Israel with the means to turn Palestinian children into chunks

1. Sniping? Y'all are the ones who came here after the election and started yelling at us. 2. Y'all were also the ones saying you didn't need our votes months before the election, but now that you lost it's all our fault? Why not get mad the Dems for running a bad campaign?

Do I wish all Democrats side with Palestine, as I do? Of course I do. You can blithely group me with those who do not, but you're entirely wrong there.

In what way am I wrong?

"weaponized"?

Yeah but it was Biden and his DOJ who allowed the coup to succeed. Trump and a number of others are not constitutionally eligible to hold the offices they now hold. Biden failed his electoral mandate and his oath of office by not enforcing it. Wtf were voters supposed to do about it?

I agree. Biden, and privileged, institutionalist Dems certainly share blame here. Harris represented perhaps a glimmer of hope, perhaps not. But for me, all of these were preferable to a Trump win and what is taking shape.

So...you've been doing this since 1988? How's it going, as a strategy, for you?

I guess we should similarly abandon the cause of human rights because it's not going well, right?

You're suggesting your strategy is the right one. I'm asking how it's going.

the “right wing” Israel in there says it all tbh, i mean, even if i didn’t continue reading what u wrote after, I would have easily figured it out/expected it 😅 that’s so liberal of you 🥺

Do you contend that there are not Israelis who oppose the right wing in that country?

The Israeli left hasn't been functional in years. Netanyahu is the longest serving PM in Israel's history for a reason: his fascist War Criminal policies wins him election after election with Israelis.

when was the israeli “left” functional or ever existed? give me any examples please 😅 also, the fact that his “War Criminal policies” keeps winning elections is a proof of my point! lastly, do you think everyone in Nazi Germany was a Nazi ? why didn’t we try to change Nazi Germany from the inside?

I'm not disagreeing with you.

Casting all Israelis as right wing Kahanists sounds quite a lot like the rhetoric that portrays all Palestineans as terrorists. This is the stance of those who are not seeking peace

have u even read what i wrote? why do you keep replying to things i didn’t even say ?

Rabin was kinda… then he got shot by a settler.

Kinda. But Rabin is best known among the Palestinians as the one who gave the order to "break the bones" of the Palestinian children who threw stones. www.latimes.com/archives/la-...

Oh I’m not saying they were a good person. But they were the only one that would even pretend. Even being moderately less shit was a bridge to far.

Every poll I've seen of Israeli citizens has them overwhelmingly in support of ethnic cleansing in Gaza, so there aren't enough of them to consider when discussing Israeli policy. Trannies who oppose the genocide don't get to transition, for instance.

that has nothing to do with what I said David, don’t twist my words, you were talking about the government, and now suddenly you shifted to talk about the Israeli people 😅! again, so liberal of you!

you saying “right wing” Israel gives the impression that there was actually ever a “left wing” israel, which is not true and pushes the narrative that the problem is in Netanyahu’s government, and takes away from the truth, which is that Israel is a colonial apartheid state who stole the land.

I agree.