I think it's both depressing and telling how many Americans (including many members of the elite media) view "masculinity" basically in terms of being an abuser and are excited and thrilled to sign up themselves and others for more abuse.
I think it's both depressing and telling how many Americans (including many members of the elite media) view "masculinity" basically in terms of being an abuser and are excited and thrilled to sign up themselves and others for more abuse.
I’ve lived my whole life around men who are responsible and concerned with the welfare of others. To me, that’s what is normal.
The concept of Poisonous Pedagogy needs to be part of a national conversation. Read some Alice Miller American journalists.
Did you read @swordsjew.bsky.social 's book?
In re "doing abuse makes you a real man," CPAC head Matt Schlapp seems to be all in: www.yahoo.com/news/cpac-ch...
Probably have little dicks and trying to compensate
I always used to bristle at how the right spoke about the “feminization of American men”, but now I see how eroded masculinity has become when I see what people think of as masculine (which makes “feminization” make more sense - who wants to be that fucking asshole?)
So many of the comments sound like a rapist excusing their behavior. Or the rapists buddies saying he’s really a good guy.
Follow us.
Remember Trump showing clips of the bootcamp scenes from Full Metal Jacket as what a non-woke US military should aspire to?
TRUTH. America rewards toxic masculinity.
Posts by maga males stating that trump and Elon are “studs”.. ?? This is confusing 🤔
tying these people down and forcing them to play the new God of War games tbh like...we've had some pretty good anti-toxic-masculinity media but it's not been sufficiently front and center??
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I believe Hegseth was confirmed because “he got some.” The abuse, the cheating, the lying and broken vows, meh. Irrelevant next to multiple women, willing or not.
They need to talk to Nancy Mace. She is a protector of women, right? She will call out the macho masculine crap and protect all women, right?
a LOT of Americans grew up with shitty and abusive Dads or other male authority figures, never learned to deal with it, and are now making it everyone's problem because Trump (and now Musk) slot so easily into that abusive role but nationally.
This isn't me projecting - my own Dad was and is great - and I actually think the people who didn't grow up in abusive households are really blind to the sort of mental hold this dynamic has over many of their friends and neighbors and how deep-seated it is.
I think about this a lot. Explains why “you made me do it” is usually the justification for horrible behavior/policy/beliefs/etc.
I think it's a pretty juvenilee conception for sure, and maybe useful to mock or deride it this way, but saying it's pure boyishness lets men off the hook. Americans who have these views typically learn to expect and valorize abusive behavior from men from their own fathers bsky.app/profile/thew...
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a less masculine thing than the time Elon musk spent a day trying to prove to everyone he shot a .50 caliber gun
And one of the only sympathetic things in Musk's character is how he hates his own dad, who Elon correctly IDs as an abusive sociopath bsky.app/profile/erne...
I think both the idea of the orc and the knight are pretty bad tbh. One of the main ideologies of toxic conservative masculinity in contemporary America is "sheepdog theory" which posits strong men as the orc-slaying knight bsky.app/profile/abea...
Beyond lauded - within the conservative movement it is explicitly *recommended.* One of the key committments of conservative evangelicals has been to protect parents' "rights" to beat their kids. bsky.app/profile/jeni...
Proverbs 13:24 "Whoever spares the rod hates their children"
Didn't Tucker cream his pants while telling everyone that Daddy's going to get the belt?
Musk - and I think this is true of MANY tech guys - was unpopular and, (in his view) bullied in school. That's another trauma I think many of them experienced and never got over, seeking revenge by becoming bullies now that they're powerful adults bsky.app/profile/1smi...
I remember, as kid who got bullied in the 90's, how the "some day they'll pump your gas" "revenge of the nerds" rhetoric was everywhere. Like having computer skills made you *better* than anyone else. As a kid I thought it was weird, even if it was meant as a comfort. Now it just looks dangerous.
Yeah I notice this with a lot of conspiracy curious tech people. They start opining on topics they learned via YouTube rabbit hole and when nobody pats them on the head and tells them how clever and special of a boy they are they go all Mr. Hyde.
(I say "in his view" because Musk tells a story about being seriously injured by classmates beating him up, but leaves out the part where the reason they beat him up was because he was taunting one of them whose father had recently committed suicide. Who's the bully there?)
Yup. Subtext becoming text really fast bsky.app/profile/conn...
my off angle take on this is that they are not putting themselves in the roll of daddy, they are putting themselves in the roll of vindicated victim who gets to witness suffering as a reward for enduring hardship, the aggrieved sibling, if you will.
This kind of toxic "Masculinity" as an ideology was a psy-op ancient societies used to convince young men to risk their lives doing violence in order to enrich and protect elites that kinda got out of hand and took on a life of its own. bsky.app/profile/jimi...
Liz Lemon at her high school reunion realizing she was the bully
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Musk's own dad said "Fair and square" when he heard the full context.
Yes. They never learned to handle rejection. This whole thing is about making sure nobody can reject anything they say ever again.
Again, my theory that the reason societal evils like slavery are no longer viewed as acceptable by society is that most children no longer grow up getting the shit regularly beaten out of them by their parents for errors both real and imagined.
And put their kids to work. Some of the dominionist “Christians” influencing GOP policy want to literally repeal laws against child labor. They’re already doing it in Arkansas.
And Iowa. It's there alternative plan to immigrants.
I'm no expert on medieval history. But I gather that most real knights were a lot more likely to loot and rape than risk their necks for a damsel in distress. The shining armor trope is just a story to justify giving the armed violent dude whatever he wants.
Sheepdog theory is so fucking stupid when applied to cops. If your sheepdog occasionally killed and ate a sheep you'd put the dog down not give it a promotion.
It's such a moronic yet perfect analogy, too. Strictly speaking, sheepdogs don't *protect* flocks in any meaningful way.
Yup. Livestock guardians protect flocks - mostly by scaring off predators and alerting shepherds if something too big to scare shows up. Sheepdogs control flocks.
Yup. Part of what makes the knight role especially toxic is that men who buy into it generally assume that, because they rescued the woman from the orc, she now belongs to them whether or not she wants to and, if she resists that, it's ok to mistreat her until she doesn't.
yep, and the knight is assumed to have claim on the princess for having "rescued" her
bsky.app/profile/wron...
Except that his mom is the much bigger racist, and he follows his mom. And Errol also correctly IDed his son as an abusive sociopath from an early age.
Wait does errol hate his son? Don't know the musk lore tbh
Not sure about "hate." Thinks he's a piece of shit, surely.
He probably sees Elon as he is, a bumbling goon with daddy issues.
Yeah, plenty of boys aren't like this! It's a very specific type of boy who acts this way, and there's lots of others!
It's like Vance describing a 24 y.o. racist as a "kid"
it’s also heavily weighted with consumer signifiers than any actual virtues. “bacon, guns, cigar, whiskey” masculinity
Outstanding analysis. Also, boys can be deadly AF.
The way most people would cross the street if they saw/smelled someone with the characteristics of either of these guys ….
My father was exactly the same kind of entitled, abusive, whiny shithead that Musk and Trump are, and wouldn't you know it he worships Trump. No idea what he thinks about Musk because I cut my father out of my life before Musk surgically grafted himself to Trump's hip.
My intuition was the opposite. That people with good fathers would be less tuned in and more willing to trust authority figures.
Have you read Layoff on "framing"? He says the right wing tends to see the world in a frame based on the "Strict Father" model in which they were raised.
well including Trump and Musk and clear dad issues with both of them
"Hurt people hurt people" is maybe the simplest heuristic for understanding how authoritarian dynamics proliferate through a society Movement conservatives understand and embrace this. You can see it in the way they reflexively lash out at concepts like gentle parenting
The role of abusive parenting in the Evangelical worldview and political program is laid out in painful detail in @swordsjew.bsky.social's new book Wild Faith. There's a reason their version of god (and of president) matches the description of an abusive father.
my son had a pal who attended a megachurch, in their kitchen hung a paddle for each child even a 3mn old baby & the mom admitted she had used that paddle ‘just can’t start soon enough’, his pal had broken his wrist playing baseball later told my son his dad broke it w/his paddle for taking a cookie
Malignant narcissist megalomaniacs and enabler minions have predictable patterns. The battle is completely different than any sane person would fathom.
This is the underlying answer to most of our social ills, imho. Most parenting done by men is more adjacent to abuse than it is to productive parenting. And most men perceive themselves as powerless to do anything but replicate it, for fear of being derided as a p^ssy
This is *exactly* why my Mom is so maga. She made her peace 40 years ago to serve her domineering husband, and now that's her idea of "masculinity" and what she thinks makes a good man
There is a direct link between authoritarian parenting practices and creating populations that clamor for authoritarian leaders! This stuff is what evangelical parenting is all about: open.substack.com/pub/strongwi...
I'm not sure this works in practice. The movement towards authoritarianism in the US is recent and I would say that parenting methods have not gotten stricter overall since say the 50s. In fact the generation there went the exact opposite way. I doubt there is such a neat and tidy link.
I’ve been studying the evangelical parenting methods from the 1970s on and they are extremely authoritarian. It was a backlash to “permissive” parenting that conservatives saw leading to feminism, the civil rights, and protesting the Vietnam war.
But were they sufficiently more authoritarian than parenting methods from the 1950s or 40s on average? There were also a lot of very permissive parents in the 1970s. Over the last 20+ years teaching college, I would say that there is more disdain for authority among the students nowadays.
Well your last sentence sounds like every evangelical parenting book making the case for why kids need to be spanked 😂
Only if you take it as a negative. I'd say there is good and bad disdain for authority. The bad one is when students have disdain for experience, knowledge, science, etc. The good one is disdain for arbitrary authority.
For example, the fact that the usual GOP voter has now disdain for the authority of the scientific community is one of the reasons we're in this mess. I'd say that is something that has changed in the last few decades.
I’ve been working on my thesis for a few years now and I think evangelical parenting methods are extremely authoritarian and are an overlooked part of this conversation (and disdain for science is absolutely a part of it).
I live in a very very red state in a somewhat rural part. I don't necessarily see it. I would actually say that the biggest problem kids are those that act most spoiled and entitled, and that seems to me to be more of an issue with the GOP electorate. 1/2
And I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way.
I grew up in a small c conservative culture, and this modern understanding of "masculinity" is just so foreign to me. I was taught to be fearful of god, to be chivalrous towards women, to be a hard worker, to take responsibility, and to not whine and moan. Modern day Republicans could never
But a lot of Americans grew up with shitty and abusive dads 20, 30, 40 years ago. So I don't really see this as explaining why Trump/Musk happened now. It might explain why they are always a possibility to happen, no matter the era. This is just too neat and clean theory to "blame it on".
Reinventing Lakoff
As Vivian Wilson can attest Musk is himself an abusive deadbeat Dad.
"I was spanked as a kid and I turned out okay."
Those dads were unable to regulate their own emotions, so their sons didn't learn to either, and as adults they are still angry about the girls who rejected them in middle school/high school/college.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately too. 💯
1950s masculinity is DV and rape.
did they ask any women if they think these turnips look masculine??
Exactly. I’m realistically tough on men but I could never think as low of masculinity as the current right does. Pathetic
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Our government is now in the hands of Francis Buxton from Peewee's Playhouse - entitled, psycopathic adolescent bullies.
Masculinity is just femininity with a different gender identity.
what they're really hankering after is not 'masculinity' but violence
This
Give me Tim Walz supporting the gay-straight alliance in rural Minnesota and also coaching the football team to a state championship. Courage, strength, support, focus, achievement.
@sonsofpatriarchy.bsky.social ⬆️
But but “toxic masculinity” isn’t a real thing! The menfolk kept screaming that at us!
Maybe that's @axios.com's brand of masculinity. Whiny and abusive--sounds like a classic bully, whiny and whingey when attacked or challenged.
"Puerile" masculinity. All 'might makes right' and 'tit for tat', incomprehending of golden-rule ethics. What you might expect of a grade-school bully?
All while saying women must submit.
Humans are apes
Also most of their traits these people champion have little to do with classic masculinity: duty, courage, responsibility, wisdom, accountability, or restraint. But rather the worst aspects of boyhood: entitlement, greed, recklessness, and crudeness.
I've been trying to think of what it means "to be a man," and, honestly, I'm at a loss. I know tough and fearless women, (military and fire service) and I don't particularly think of them as manly. I have been known to scream at an unexpected spider, but I don't think anyone would say I'm not manly
I truly only think it's the way you dress and the hobbies you acquire (which are all cultural). To me there are no personality traits that lend themselves to women or men. Both can be nurturing and protective providers within the constraints of even the most traditionalist views
That's because there are no distinct "masculine traits" or "feminine traits." That kind of categorization just reinforces gender essentialism, which worsens the problem. Unfortunately, there are a lot of liberal and leftist men who aren't open to understanding this.
This precisely. I have never encountered a "masculine" virtue that couldn't more honestly be attributed to "adulthood."
Anything I do is manly, because I am a man. The same goes for anything done by any other man. Masculinity is just the collective sum of how men behave. If we see a societal form of masculinity that we don't like, we can change it just by changing our behavior.
So you're not a fan of the no true Scotsman fallacy?
Yeah. Scotsmen are as Scotsmen do.
Subs buy into the Dom culture, too.
When Governor Walz burst onto the national scene as the Harris VP choice, someone described his persona as “tonic masculinity.” We need so much more of that!
My perspective-toxic masculinity is to me the opposite of masculine. Needing to display it looks weak to me, and to many women. I think the behavior is to impress other men, which seems pathetic. Someone should tell them.
The essence of toxic masculinity is INSECURITY.
To me, being manly is helping and protecting the most vulnerable among us. But what do I know? I’m just a girl.
Musk is the elementary school bully who never learned anything other than schoolyard taunts because his balls never dropped.
Manliness and femininity, the true versions of both, are really just about different ways people lift others up. What the right promotes are twisted and bastardized versions that reinforce an unequal power dynamic which only hurts men and women alike.
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Someone summed up how the medieval chivalry of the old Europe sounds now progressive compared to the current American masculinity culture.
Here it is: bsky.app/profile/nied...
It is a profound tragedy that the most prevalent images of masculinity are about being abusive and combative rather than carrying oneself with honor and helping those who cannot help themselves bsky.app/profile/jame...
Those latter traits are not inherently masculine, either. Women can do both. So can nonbinary people.
I agree!
This is one of the reasons I was so excited about (and am still a big supporter of) Governor Walz. He offers such an uplifting and positive example of what masculinity can be.
Seeing masculinity through a lens of domination and submissiveness and not much else.
I vomit in their milkshake.
There is a hidden epidemic of malignant narcissism in men taking over America, and it was always designed to end up exactly like this.
To be fair, some are psyched to be abusers (cue Sweet Dreams Are Made of These).
I constantly see men describing themselves as inherently abusive, "that's just how men are," but then they'll scream "misandry!" if I suggest that maybe that's not true and it's actually a choice to be abusive. Which is... Wild. I can't fathom how seeing men as naturally awful is a positive.
that and ill fitting baseball hats and wives, yep
Alice Miller identified this in For Your Own Good as the roots of Nazi Germany. If we ever survive this moment, a significant amount of time will need to be devoted to re-education.
Americans don’t have a good enough understanding of history, or are so bought into propaganda, to understand that the strong knight ruling over the peasants from his castle was much more of a brutal protection racket than a noble chivalric relationship
So much of our fiction tries to sell the "noble chivalric relationship" (eg Downton Abbey; Game of Thrones). Those at the top always hope that those at the bottom will revere them. They expect the peasants to thank them for the exploitation.
Musk masculine? - his only sex activity is onanism for IVF purposes.
In short, these are piss ants pretending to be men.
This is why I say I am bad at being a dude
I put part of the blame on sitcoms. Americans had decades of being shown men as selfish immature idiots who still manage to have everything come out alright. Trump is like "American Dad" made flesh.
Despite what Tucker Carlson, Charlie Kirk, and the rest believe, toxic masculinity is real. Sensitivity, compassion, and intelligence are weaknesses to them. They disgusts me, loud boys with bluster, sexism and guns aren't necessarily men.
Seeing the number of Trump supporters gleefully saying things like “Daddy’s home!” and “dad’s going to take off his belt!” was such a psychological record-scratch moment for me.
The "weird" in these guys is just overwhelming.
Tucker Carlson had such a grossly and weirdly sexual speech where he talks about America like it’s a 15 yr old girl and Trump is gonna spank her for going out in a short skirt. Really learning a lot more than I ever wanted to know about Tucker
Didn’t his mom like abandon him? Understandable tbh….
I think it’s that she only left him a dollar in her will. That translates to essentially writing him out and in estate law means he can’t really contest her will because she did leave him something. You have to be really mad at someone to lock it up like that.
Yep yep yep yep yep yeeeeeep. *dry heaves*
It’s very gross
The felon in chief; Wears foundation Spends hours daily on his hair Wears lifts (male equivalent of heels?) Tell me he isn’t failed excuse for a glorious drag queen.
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This is a vision of masculinity I have just no access to. My dad and granddad were outdoorsmen who loved kids and books and had strong conviction that being a man is about duty and virtue
masculinity is when you're a star they let you do it
Let's face it: the only thing that separates Musk from being the high school kid who gets his lunch money constantly taken away and being stuffed into his locker are his billions.
Of course, I don't mean you @mtsw.bsky.social. your posts got my blood going. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Being an adulterer is viewed as a feature not a bug when Trump looks for cabinet members. And still has massive Christian support
So many men literally made hating women their personality & got celebrated. So many others refuse to engage with reality. Every damn day pastor/cop/elected etc. outed for hurting women & kids & folks just continue to elect & trust the same types while pointing evil fingers at innocent Trans people.
I always thought of masculinity as having the will and capability to provide for your family and protect them from an unfair chaotic world, but apparently it actually means getting your own way by assaulting women and threatening lawsuits. Weird.
We need to get some hard hitting satire out there constantly just ripping musk and the tech bro class - daily. Turn them back into ridicule.