Patients should pay £20 for a GP appointment as part of an insurance-based NHS, says former Tory Minister Sajid Javid. It is a plan for mass democide of low/middle income families, sick, old and disabled to enable corporations/rich to profiteer. Defend your rights or lose them. archive.ph/lJHUh
Why would we want to give away our free at the point of use. This is another con by the right to make money for their mates and damn the consequences
People pay into the NI pot for this, in my case from 1972. Javid needs to fuck off, the farther the better, I'm sure he will feel more at home..
And there you have it!
Germany here. We tried that. It failed & was ended after 8 yrs. €10 per annual quarter for every 1st GP/dentist/A&E visit. Aim: to curb no. of doctor's visits. Started in '04. Ended in '12. Why? No. of GP visits didn't decline, too much additional admin & poor people prevented from seeing a GP:
![On 9 November 2012, the Bundestag decided with the votes of all parliamentary parties to abolish the practice fee as of 1 January 2013. The aim of the practice fee to reduce the number of visits to the doctor and to structure the use of panel doctors had not been achieved. Low-income earners, however, were discouraged from necessary visits to the doctor. The practice fee was a one-sided burden on patients, the additional income from it low, covering only about 1% of the expenditure of the statutory health insurance. At the same time, it created unnecessary bureaucracy. [Wikipedia; translation: deepl/mine]](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:ysg7hp6kgncoryoll2fz2pgk/bafkreifuoaeg3y5fhixtcgribnxa3sngbe2lir4cxokodizzr5dg6yoi3q@jpeg)
It was a stupid idea the first time he suggested it.
Tories gonna Tory. All they know is charging for things the state previously paid for, and in the process always making the situation a whole lot worse. A 19th Century party in a 21st Century world: failing miserably.
Cf. University tuition fees and maintenance grants; dentistry.
How it starts: £20 for a GP appointment. How it ends: £500 pm (if you have no long term illnesses or recent claims) but then you’re too scared to make an appointment anyway because if you do, next year it will be £750 pm.
Not sure what democide means. But will stop people using GPs, same as dentists.
it means the government killing it's citizens.
They really don't want this. All of a sudden, that fee would give patients a say in how the appointment goes, and the whole balance would shift, the way students paying fees changes universities.
Javid and his ilk don’t care how many men and women died in the belief that the state would take care of their dependents. For such people to put wreaths on war memorials is meaningless hypocrisy.
This is the path to privatisation.
Like we already are forced to pay for dental care under the ‘NHS’? How many either willingly do not, or cannot afford to, visit a dentist because of costs? Our NHS already fails to meet even its first basic principle - free at point of service! SJ was already an arse…
Teeth don't count Feet neither Eyes and ears, nope, pay for them too Anything that manifests visibly on the skin? Cosmetics! Get yer wallet out for a good old donor-scraping.
Privatising health by stealth.
The Tories have always wanted to scrap the NHS, but knowing that would be politically disastrous they opted for deliberate mismanagement, hoping in time the public would turn against it.
Just like the small payments towards dentist appointments … look where NHS dentistry is right now… this wouldn’t end well! 🤔
Tory in favour of privatisation. What a surprise. They can’t help wanting to put profits above public good.
2021. Cashback. www.theguardian.com/politics/202...
Javid doesn’t realise the current “one issue per 10 minute appointment” will carry over to this £20 per appointment malarky. This means anyone with complex interacting health conditions will be either fleeced or will have to choose which conditions go untreated - like the wild west of dentistry.
The complex interacting condition thing is already not taken in to account with the current system. It's a nightmare trying to get joined-up healthcare.
Yup. The ticker tape style display at my GP practice has told me for over a decade to only to raise one issue at a time. GPs know I live with several interacting conditions and are mostly flexible. 1/2
As always the simplest ‘solution’ is ill thought through and neglects to think of the unintended consequences. People without £20 won’t go… they’ll wait until there’s no choice or attend A&E instead. Worse health outcomes and likely rise of chronic illness not treated / prevented. Words fail.
And those most affected will again be those in work, earning just enough to be the wrong side of the free access threshold As always, the lack of a taper will create a cliff face for the working poor to fall off again. As with UC, etc, yet again.
Even farmers keep the herd healthy. Somehow short term greed & surgically removed ethics, has taken over the market.
Credit card details taken at all hospitals. Charged when patients arrive internationally and have no entitlement (except accidents) or Brit & and they've turned with something that takes the pish.
Hasn't Streeting repeatedly also endorsed Policy Exchange?
Better still, kill all of the PFI contracts that are raking cash in for city shareholders.
My mum told me before the NHS people didn’t visit doctors, paying the consultation fee alone meant no money for food or rent. If it was really necessary, you paid a half-crown at the dentist to get a tooth pulled. Austerity is culling the herd.
Well he can pipe down. He should be in jail
I expected this to come from Keir Starmer at £10 a visit and as the poor die off, the price rising eventually to something like £30. Of course, it will all be administered by a company like Palantir who will take a 30% handling fee.
Tax the rich filth in UK, says some poor dumb fuck who's ready to top himself because of Starmer
Is this the same Sajid Javid that fiddled his taxes?!
The Torygraph and right wing "think" tanks, name a better couple.
And yeah, £20 now but in 10 years what will it be? Thinking of when student loans were introduced & they were tiny....
How stupid do you have to be not to know that people will go to A&E instead of paying a fee?
I'm bad enough at getting myself to go the GP, and had to get nagged by two strangers to see a dentist for a cyst. This is just another block to healthcare. Disgusting and Reprehensible. #nhs #taxtherich
When he was health minister he gave a huge chunk of NHS money to private sector for nothing. It was so shocking thar for the first time ever NHS CEO tried to stop him.
📌
People will just go directly to A&E... which is already at breaking point.
We already have an insurance based health scheme. We pay National Insurance specifically for: Health care, free at the point of use Unemployment benefit when out of work State Pension None of these are actually gifts, they are our entitlement because we contribute to the insurance based system.
All of that is still defined by legislation, there are no allocated pots + NI is also not spent exclusively on those services. For example, pensions can be legislated to be triple locked, and if this is possible, then it's also possible to legislate for appointment fees (which I think would be bad)
It does not detract from the fact that National Insurance defines clear entitlements as a result of contributions to the fund.
One is entitled to healthcare even if they never paid NI. The truth is all of that is just fluid legislation, and can change one way or another depending on the whims of the Parliament.
The NHS is not paid for out of any sinking fund. NI is just a factored in tax drain devised as an 'offset', but NHS is paid for entirely out of normal govt deficit injections. I'm in the Netherlands now, where 'insurance' means €150+ per month, plus out of pocket costs.
The original establishment of National Insurance was to cover the 3 areas. General taxation may well supplement this and NI may well be used as a more general tax but it does not detract from the fat of NI, its purpose and therefore our entitlement to all defined benefits
The entitlement comes from policy, not from having paid NI. It's a hard discussion to have because everyone seems to think it is a sort of sinking fund. In theory NI could be abolished and it really wouldn't matter with regard to its funding. It isn't specific to that flow of funding.
Yep. For example, JSA is tied to the fact of one having paid NI but free at the point healthcare isn't. Nothing of that is "logical" or "unchangeable" in principle, it's just the policy controlled by the Parliament.
JSA is monitored from being in the taxation system, but is isn't paid or 'funded' by NI.
Ah, of course - if this is what is being discussed. There is no money earmarked for that from a specific tax (NI). But there is at least an arbitrary link between the two (also set by legislation), which is missing for other services. Entitlement indeed doesn't come from the payments made.
It isn't insurance. You can get the benefit of a state pension without paying any NI at all. There's no insurance scheme where you can get the benefit even if you never paid the premium.
You do NOT get the full pension unless you have paid something like 35 years of NI. You require to have at least 10 qualifying years on the NI record of contributions or credits So thats not quite true Is there anyone who has gone through life without ever paying NI? I think it is a bogus point
You can earn qualifying years without paying a penny of NI. I got 2 years just for being in the 6th form in the 1970s. More commonly, full-time carers and the disabled earn qualifying years without paying any NI. This is why it is good that it is a welfare benefit, not an insurance policy.
It is a CONTIBUTORY insurance system, designed to be paid according to peoples ability to pay and valuing those who seek further education, caring roles, etc. We CONTRIBUTE as a collective.
You're not wrong. It is contributory based on ability to pay. But that isn't how an insurance policy works. Premiums aren't set according to your ability to pay. What insurance policy or pension savings plan have you seen that is priced like that? Also, NI pays for things other than pensions.
As I stated before NI was the result of bring 2 funds together that originate from as far back as 1911, combined following the Beveridge Report in 1942. This single fund was for 3 specific things: Health care, free at the point of use Social Security Pensions This has been the case since.
Fine. But it isn't an insurance policy in any normal meaning of that.
And I never actually said that it was a traditional insurance scheme - there are no profits for a start. It is however a National Insurance scheme that exists and covers health care...is actually the most efficient way to support healthcare and it is available to all.
Well you said it was "an insurance-based scheme" but you have clarified what you meant.
They are known as benefits as if you are getting something for nothing.
I know but they are actually entitlements as we have paid for them via National Insurance contributions. The irony is that it was actually Winston Churchill who brought 2 funds together that became National Insurance in the early 1940's following the Beveridge Report.
Tory policy to stuff the hospitals with people who could have just seen a GP - but A&E was cheaper/it might get better if we just wait and see...
Disgusting idea from a failed has been attempting to roll the pitch for privatisation. Guaranteed to provide terrible outcomes for the user but massive profits for the shareholders!
Make the people who don't pay their real tax bill pay up their be another money for the nhs plus schools roads police etc All they do find ways to avoid paying But still want to use the service Fucking hypocites
That's the most rubbish idea that idiot has come up with in a long time.
Why not make the people who can easily afford it pay more tax instead to help those who can't.
Whether they are taxed more or not (though they should be) this has no effect on the govt's ability to fund the NHS. Every payment they make is by decree for whatever their policy aims are. They are funded by neither taxes nor 'the markets'. The govt is the sole legal issuer. They fund the markets.
Is preparation for this the reason I keep getting SMS messages from my GP asking me to make an appointment?
Fuck that shit right off. Or give me all my National Insurance money back. You can't have it both ways you greedy bastards. #nhs
No .. this is wrong … it means people hold off from seeing their GP because of the cost and then their symptoms suffer delay which actually costs the NHS much more, apart from the human suffering.
Yep. Dentistry being an object example.
Agreed.
This is appalling. Nobody should have to take out their own teeth and children’s teeth should not be the main reason for their hospitalisation.
Self-inflicted rationing. Which means so many more people will not have cancers picked up until they are already terminal. Same with heart disease patients. My AF and cardiomyopathy were picked up by my GP when I went into to get antibiotics for a chest infection. This will kill thousands
This is my experience - speaking for a friend.
Me, sobbing: You can't just call any dipshit who's written an obviously paid for document a "Think tank" British right-wing media, pointing at Sajid Javid: Think tank.
It's spelt with a W...
Twink tank?
Frankly, I'm only surprised this didn't come from Wes Streeting
Someone should rid us of this fatfaced squareheaded arrogant shithead Streeting.
It isn't the first time this nonsense came up. Maybe time to start exposing this think tank to some sunlight and brigading its works?
There's no doubt it'll grow the economy '. Think of all those purple notes flying around that were doing useless things before like sitting in biscuit tins. Not to mention the bank fees and payment system subscription charges.
I know a think tank much bigger and better than YOUR think tank. It's called the British Public. MY think tank says this: Don't have an insurance-based NHS - it would bleed you dry by charging mega-bucks for trivial issues and fail to provide cover for pre-existing conditions. DON'T DO IT.
Javid you say, Torygraph you say. Shocked? I'm not.
So the poor won't go to the GP, they'll get sicker, need emergency care and then put more strain on the NHS.... FFS! 🤬
Which was the entire reason for setting up the NHS! They're simpletons.
And we have so many privatised success stories don't we?
£20 fee = massive increase in death rate.
Javid clearly has a short memory. This policy was proposed under the Tories (Cameron's I think) - I was on the patient committee at my surgery at the time. It was dismissed as uneconomical, costing more to administer than it would gain. So many will need to be exempt from the charge. #TaxTheRich
Javid and The Telegraph using *Britain* when they mean England. Health is devolved.
Do always remember that this would have to be implemented. Given how utterly useless this country is at actually doing anything, it would never happen.
Getting those benefit cuts for the disabled one way or another, I see
Fuck off Javid you corrupt cunt. Gentrification of the NHS will cause the country to riot. Killing the most vulnerable has always been Tory policy.
The NHS budget was growing under Tories (including in real terms for a big part of their tenure), and they have introduced the triple lock and increased personal allowance, as well as have been raising minimum wage. Their rule was catastrophic, but this claim wrong.
The claim is not wrong, it has always been Tory policy to kill it off, but whilst working out how they still have to meet its funding. There is plenty they did to cut parts of it under Cameron to Sunak.
I don’t know what claim he refers to. I made 3. Javid is corrupt. Gentrification of the NHS will cause the country to riot. Killing the most vulnerable has always been Tory policy. 1 is a fact. 2 is an opinion 3 has been the case all of my life, the tories exist for owners and donors.
It's claim 3 I was referring to, but wtf is "gentrification of the NHS", is introduction of appointment charges (which I am against) "gentrification"? You can't just call all bad things "gentrification".
Actual gentrification (which I am not against) is when some people move into a new area and some leave. In case of the NHS everyone is already "in", people can only leave if they have to pay the charges, but there won't be any new users attracted by them. It's a misleading label and it isn't helpful
Actual Gentrification is a poor area is made more respectable… sounds fine until you understand how it tears communities and generations apart.
Having moved countries myself and cities before that I find it difficult to consider how having to move to another postcode in the same city as a big deal. When I was renting, I was moving often myself, so it isn't like I wasn't exposed to it. But admittedly it's just my perspective.
I’ve worked around the world for 30 years and I have no personal problem with moving. I’m financially free so have no skin in the game. I’ve witnessed communities torn apart. Being forced to relocate when you’re on the breadline and don’t want to be separated from friends and family is awful.
Gentrification was lazy and wrong. It’s pay to play, if you have money you can afford it. But if you are here to defend Tories, you’re wasting your time with me. I’ll block you before I argue, my experience is long and varied.
Do as you please, but I have never voted Tory and am not intending to do in the future.
You can pull me up on my lazy and wrong use of language, but you’re telling me they look after pensioners… they don’t, they look after their own, slipping in a bit of sugar for the poor. That’s how populism works.
What claim is wrong?
That "killing the vulnerable had always been a Tory policy" if by "killing the vulnerable we understand pensioners, minimum wage earners and people dependent on the NHS.
Cameron - austerity May - death of vulnerable citizens, Johnson - death of thousands of citizens. Truss collapsed the economy, affecting the poorest the most. Sunak - Dr Death. Thatcher was complicit in the murder of children, as well as destroying communities leading to suicides.
Half of people's GP appointments are chasing up lost information.
Tories opposed the setting up of the NHS. Almost eighty years on, they still want to kill it
If it were possible to charge Tory Nobodies £20 for every dumb-as-£uck attempt to get NHS Privatisation off the ground they would be bankrupt by Thursday week.
It would be nice if people didn’t abuse the system though. My wife at the dispensary the other day behind an old woman waiting for her prescription of paracetamol which she of course got free of charge.
Generally paracetamol isn't prescribed anymore but if it is these are the reasons why it would be.
My point was that you can buy it at the supermarket for pennies, but some people will abuse the system because it’s free - even to save a few pennies
My point was doctors don't generally prescribe those drugs you can buy for pennies anymore. Those who do get them prescribed generally have a reason for that. There's no need to blame those using the NHS for the state it's in.
Alright, I'll pay £20, but do I have to have Streeting masturbating in the corner when I try to access euthenasia?
Think tank is an oxymoron.
It is class war.
Ofc Javid won’t have a problem paying the £20 surcharge. This is yet another underhanded attempt to dismantle the NHS as initially intended.
Do not normalize this. Palantir bought NHS 643,000 Americans filed for bankruptcy annually due to medical debt before Covid. Private insurance does not cover pre-existing conditions in the UK, as was true in the US until Obama made it illegal to do so. Private healthcare= the private equity of you.
bsky.app/profile/sick... Palantir is building a database of all Americans.
We have an insurance based system already - it's called National Insurance. Leave things alone - we don't want to end up with a total shitstorm of a health service like the USA.
But Tory Javid does not matter.
Think it’s coming
He’s been peddling this idea since 2023 with £66 for A&E… 🔗 leftfootforward.org/2023/01/saji...
Telegraph tho
The same Sajid who traded his whole ministerial career on being the son of a bus driver, is really a full on ‘down with the poor’ capitalist. Who would have guessed that?
Jeez feck that - if it goes the same way as NHS dentistry (which in reality is practically none existent) we’re all knackered- well those without much money anyway - that & assisted dying bill - it’s eugenics in action, a culling of the poor & they’ve brainwashed some to vote for their own demise!
Anyone who doesn’t realise this will cost exponentially more than it saves, because it will delay people going for necessary appointments, should give up on developing health policy.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to the better off paying a small fee, but I recognise that's not how it'll work: the bulk of the money would come from those less able to pay, and the bulk of that would go to the private companies administering the system. And Javid knows that full well.
The bitter pill for a universal system means that everyone has to be entitled to it. Everyone. The rich can choose to see a private doctor if they choose, so they already have that luxury.
Worth mentioning that Wes Streeting's flagship elective care policy is a direct continuation of Sajid Javid's NHS policies.
Even in the near-Nazi USA there are no copayments in our under-attack Medicare (our NHS for people over 65). I’m pretty sure that’s also true for Medicaid, the program for lower-income people. It’s just the in-between groups that are being squeezed here.
Is this still the case with the devastation to these programs by the current administration ripping the heart out of their funding?
It is right now but everything is subject to change under Trump and RFKJr. Everyone in these programs is living on tenterhooks these days, expecting bad news!
Even Magats? Are they even catching on/up yet?… 🤷🏼♂️
Javid's idea is utter bullshit as I pointed out the last time he suggested it: www.hsj.co.uk/daily-insigh... (but the reasons are not because it is some sinister plot but because it won't work)