'How will you prevent another Emmett Till' is an incredibly important, pertinent question that literally no abolitionist has an answer to beyond 'It just won't happen'
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You occasionally see something along the lines of "We will just ensure everyone's material needs will be met (because we will also simulatenously destroy capitalism), and this will mean no one will ever harm anyone again," which is just breathtaking.
aug 31, 2025, 9:12 pm • 42 1 • view
"now let me take a sip of water and look up how many obscenely wealthy men are also rapists"
aug 31, 2025, 9:15 pm • 23 0 • view
(and, to be fair, obscenely wealthy women too)
aug 31, 2025, 9:16 pm • 3 0 • view
Oh, but you see, they only do that because they exist under a capitalist ideology. Rape and murder are exclusively byproducts of capitalism, invented in the last 400 years.
aug 31, 2025, 9:20 pm • 21 1 • view
If Jeffrey Epstein had just been provided with the same economic resources and basic possessions as everyone else in a fully and naturally egalitarian society, he would've been as saintly as the rest of us, which would be very. No need for law or punishment.
aug 31, 2025, 9:40 pm • 22 0 • view
Ah, but in a fair society, Jeffrey Epstein would not have possessed the individual resources to traffic so many young women. Thus, his crimes would have been impossible unless he somehow found dozens of like-minded individuals to help him out. Oh, he actually did have dozens of accomplices? Huh.
aug 31, 2025, 11:34 pm • 11 0 • view
Even if you decide *punishment* is by its very nature illegitimate (which is an argument I'm actually quite open to) you need some mechanism for enforcing *consequences* and *restitution*, up to and including refusing ongoing access to victims if the behaviour continues.
aug 31, 2025, 11:05 pm • 5 0 • view
Which starts to sound an awful lot like courts and prison. Or at the very least outlawry, but outlawry is a challenge in a world of 8 billion.
aug 31, 2025, 11:05 pm • 3 0 • view
And, like, even if it's all generational trauma ... by definition, you can't eliminate generational trauma overnight!
aug 31, 2025, 11:03 pm • 6 0 • view
“Communism is when there’s no problems” - Karl Marx
sep 1, 2025, 12:46 am • 5 0 • view
It’s wild because one of the biggest problems with capitalism is that people whose total needs are met keep doing insane shit to pursue their wants, but anarchoids are like “Okay sure but everyone else will just be totally cool once their needs are met”
sep 1, 2025, 12:30 am • 6 0 • view
Seriously. Also, if you don't have *some* form of prison, what do you do with people who simply refuse to govern their own behaviour to avoid hurting others. Those people will still exist in a socialist utopia.
aug 31, 2025, 9:42 pm • 5 0 • view
The two most common answers I've seen are: 1) "That would never happen under my utopian pipe-dream" 2) Exile/corporal punishment/execution/
sep 1, 2025, 5:25 am • 3 0 • view
Corporal punishment or execution??? Can't imagine any of the abolitionists I know advocating that ...
sep 1, 2025, 2:18 pm • 2 0 • view
Personally I think there will always be people, call them the Jeffrey Dahmers, we have to cinfine because we have no way to trust they won't do unspeakable acts. That confinement can be humane & in line with our values. But it has to happen. We also stop confining nonviolent offenders.
sep 1, 2025, 3:02 pm • 2 0 • view
In 2005 there was the Back on Track diversion program in San Francisco for nonviolent offenders that included an educational component. It dropped the recidivism rate from the 50% that the control group had to under 10%. I think that could become a model for the rest of the nation, as CA uses it.
sep 1, 2025, 3:56 pm • 2 0 • view
To clarify, that program has since been incorporated into the broader state policy, what with the Division of Recidivism Reduction and Reentry. Back on Track was also piloted in Los Angeles as well as San Francisco.
sep 1, 2025, 3:59 pm • 1 0 • view
For sure. I think everyone in this conversation is focused on the hardcore <10% (probably <1%) who could go through all the programs and have all the social supports and would still choose to hurt others. You can drive that number way way down but you'll never get it to zero.
sep 1, 2025, 3:59 pm • 2 0 • view
Yeah, we will still need police, prisons, jails, judges, etc etc but we can make that system a lot less crowded if first time nonviolent offenders aren’t immediately thrown in the slammer. The other factor that makes this work is that crime tends to be a young person’s game, so if you can delay a-
sep 1, 2025, 4:03 pm • 0 0 • view
potential crook for 4 years or so, having them get an education and doing community service, some percentage of them will mature enough to go “wow the payout for a life of crime is way less than the standard 9-5, I’m going to go legit”.
sep 1, 2025, 4:06 pm • 1 0 • view
There's any number of kids out there who end up turning to crime because their environment quite literally does not include or provide any opportunities to make a living legitimately
sep 1, 2025, 4:21 pm • 1 0 • view
That’s the beauty of the Back on Track diversion program, it might only be community college, but even an Associate’s degree can open doors. Plus if you do your general education at a community college you can usually transfer to a State University here in California.
sep 1, 2025, 4:25 pm • 1 0 • view
100%.
sep 1, 2025, 4:22 pm • 2 0 • view
And exile ... like ... where? The planet's kinda full!
sep 1, 2025, 2:18 pm • 1 0 • view
I seriously think people who believe these things should be forced to sit in municipal court for a week or two. There's a big disconnect between utopian abolitionists and reality.
aug 31, 2025, 10:00 pm • 1 0 • view
Yeah. Not all such behaviour comes from trauma that can be avoided with better social supports. Some of it is simply inherent to human nature. It shocks me particularly coming from theologically literate Christians, whom you would think would have an understanding of the dynamics of sin!
aug 31, 2025, 11:01 pm • 3 0 • view