As a writer also in a field with a very high exec/top brass presence in the creative process, I can guarantee you that in 99% of cases, if the writing feels like you're repetitively being spoon fed plot and exposition, it's a directive from on high and not what the writer would do if left alone.
☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻
The article COULD have been written to focus on THAT instead of in Varric saying the ritual must be stopped (which, considering DAV is a point of entry to the series and picks up where the previous 10-year-old title left off, is NOT absurd) and so I consider the piece weak. But the point was made.
Yes, agreed. It's the tutorial level welcoming new players - it's the nature of the form there. There's so much lovely writing in the game, too, and THAT, to me, is the true voice of the writers protecting what they could as much as they could.
Oh YEAH. No question about that. I just said that because I'd hate to see people veering into bad faith when trying to be loving towards the game, by not reading and reflecting about the article and just jumping to conclusions bc it's a PC Gamer piece on DAV.
Oh, yeah, for sure! I was agreeing with you and kinda spinning off a "yes, and!"
TBF Veilguard's writing (and not only the writing -- everyone's work) carried me through some hard times now, and I'm truly grateful.
It reminds me of the pilot of the TV show where a father says to his daughter "As an air force pilot of 20 years." That line is not for the daughter, it is for the audience. It makes no sense in context for him to say it like that. (YMMV on how well it works in TV in those cases I feel)
Those don't work for me because that stuff CAN come through in context (character relationships, etc) or is overly specific info that isn't necessary in the moment. Varric saying "we have to stop the ritual" is more comparable to, like, "if we don't find the kidnapper in 12 hours, the kid will die."
Yeah hence the "YMMV" stuff. I think it's fair to suggest it's an easy way out. But yeah fair enough with respect to Varric's urgency not quite being the same. Clearly I'm not a writer! hahaha I was too far removed from executive level discussions but I do feel there was a "it'll be 10 years"
oh yeah, of course. so much of that stuff is very ymmv. I, for one, never notice when the prop to-go coffee cups are clearly empty on shows and in movies.
Yeah I was thinking that I know people who wax about their experience to their kids all the time lmao I think that an actual terrible example would be "Suicide Squad"s "her heart is out! That's her weakness" or whatever when it had been communicated MULTUPLE TIMES during the movie that was the case
Was that the first one? I never did see that one but yeah that seems silly. Sometimes it makes me wonder if it was created in parallel when that sort of stuff happens so left hand is unaware of what the right hand is doing so covering their bases.
Maybe, who knows. It's a mess. But Varric's line is nowhere close to it. It's a tutorial level, a recap, and an introduction for new and old players. Nothing terrible with it, at least not to the point of writing an essay with it as a centerpoint imo
I do think there's a challenge of context which, even before I was in game dev, understanding that a line may not be explicitly *for me*, that is important to remember. Someone wholly neck deep in the lore of fandom and following everything so closely is a small slice of the club.
They are also often the most present, and typically also your strongest evangelizers for the word of mouth stuff.
See, in the waxing to your kids example, I think the way that works best is if it reveals something specific about the character that's not just biographical detail. Like is this a story dad always tells and the kids are like, "yes, yes, we know, twenty WHOLE years"? Stuff like that.
Yeah! Totally. But, in the context of the convo, it's not......... disgraceful. It's just unimpressive? maybe a little bit trite. But nothing that horribly breaks immersion, I don't think
Yeah, I can see that. Allan totally said ymmv, and he's very right!
Having read other work by many of the writers who worked on datv on top of being a long time da fan, and it felt so frustrating playing the game and seeing these amazing parts that often get dragged down by awkward moments you know was someone else's decision.
at a certain point in game dev it's all about horse trading with execs. take this suggestion that you disagree with to forestall them pushing this OTHER suggestion that you MASSIVELY disagree with. sure, the first one makes things worse - but it makes things so much LESS worse than the second.
Oh boy, I remember having 8 permutations of a design, and we purposely put the worst one between two other very good ones, and the exec still chose the worst one somehow.
"as long as he doesn't choose 4, I think we're good" He chose 4.
sometimes i wonder if they know and they're just doing it as a power play but then i see what some folks consider 'good' and i think, no, things are just fucked
I know for a fact that he just had bad taste, because he once asked us to recreate the art for an evil, imposing character so that the camera was from a high angle because he would look MORE imposing that way. I'm not kidding.
oh no
At one point, I contemplated just trashing the worst designs and never showing them to him in the hopes we could point him towards our favorites.
This is amazing.
You can't make stuff like this up.
I'm just numb at this point
In my heart of hearts, I thought "boy, it sure would be funny if he chose the one design out of these 8 that the whole team unanimously dislikes." It wasn't funny when he chose it.
There comes a point when you have to remember you're here for the art And another, deeper point in which you have to remember you're here because, at this point, it is what it is
As John put it, you just have to roll with it so that bigger, worse ideas never see the light of day.
[thousand yard stare of agreement]
I need the padded room
You forgot "Take this suggestion that you disagree with to avoid being labeled as a 'problem' and put on the short-list to a PIP."
I am familiar with this phenomenon far more than I'd like to be.
yeah i feel like every time we cross paths on here it's because of the grim realization that the bullshit in TV and the bullshit in games is the same bullshit, but with a jaunty hat
Gotta stop meeting like this.
Do love watching things with strong creative voices succeeding and the takeaway executives seem to get is that they need to do the same thing but aggressively file off anything distinct about it. Creative projects should be helmed by creatives.
when i did interface design as a (very expensive!) consultant, i always thought of this as them having to piss on their territory i don’t believe any of their claims as to why they think they need it they’re just tiny little toads who can’t stand to not put their stinky stamp on others’ work
Hearing that said really grinds my gears. Im so sorry thats reality for creatives in companies. 3
Yes! Almost every time we have gotten harangued over a line of dialogue, it’s been something that was a note that we were forced to shoehorn in. I wish more people understood that we mostly don’t get to just do whatever we want.
Seriously. It's the worst because it tortures us so much, and we can't say ANYTHING.
I KNOW. ugh!
I feel like people heard about how George Lucas was only able to make the original trilogy so good because of oversight & being reigned in and just assumed it must be forever so, now and always 😩
It's a miracle that any collaborative artistic work gets mad, much less be good.
It depends on the oversight. Like, a good note can absolutely make something way better. Having creative feedback is a big part of the process. Writers read and note each other all the time. Just, the phenomenon of explicitly spelling out emotion and exposition is usually not additive.
i really enjoyed that game a lot but yeah sometimes the scenes drag on and on bcos they’re repeatedly explaining what’s happening or, worse, what just happened during the last segment you played through. i came to loathe that little team sofa area in the main hub.
honestly as the person who ended up writing most of those team sofa conversations same i wrote the entirety of Cage For Gods in less time than it generally took me to write a single one of those
FWIW I loved seeing everyone coming together and just discuss lore for an hour or so.
so those are DIFFERENT those are the 'memory' conversations and I didn't write any of those what i wrote were about 60-70% of the post-mission debrief/pre-mission intro those were the 'hey this is why you're doing this/this is why you did this'
Oh those, my bad
nah no worries at all, i just want to make sure the proper people get credit
cool lore shit - other writers passable connective tissue - that's very often meeee
Veilguard-appreciator here. Connective tissue-writing sort of like summary-writing--a task necessary but perilous, marrying a horrifying level of responsibility with a perpetual betrayal of what we must compact and reiterate. All my respect, Mr. Epler.
You did great lore stuff when given the chance. Connective tissue scenes have a definite ceiling of enjoyability. Only so much lipstick you can put on that nug.
i feel like you could tell anytime i was working on those because of the gifs i would send you
I will never, ever forget the memo circulated from Netflix that directed their filmmakers to make stories that could be followed without actually seeing the screen… for the benefit of viewers making spaghetti while they watched.
Reflecting on Bioware DA & Larain taking Bioware's first hit BG to 3. Is there no one left in BW who remembers choosing their own adventure? BW built the scaffolding for all RPGs _ MMO in the western diaspora & had millions of DND players in persistent worlds built by players. Go back to then!
"You've used too many proper nouns. It's confusing. Re-write and use 50% fewer proper nouns. But also explain everything in detail. Without spending any additional time talking, because talking is boring."
I leave the following without comment www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud...
Ah yes the good ol' "second screen" notes 🫠
Oop, gotta change the interaction settings on this because people are being super duper normal about it.
Too many suits can only understand hammers when the peasants crave scalpels.
DAV was the 1st in the series I played and I loved it. I missed every clue about Varric on 1st play and stopped when I realized he was dead b/c I had just lost my father, but after a week or 2 I dove back in and it helped me deal with that loss so much that this game will always be special to me.
(nods thoughtfully and philosophically but not in a way that would violate any kind of NDA)
ok Trick keep nodding. Maybe between 1 to 26 times with some pauses between. More nodding. I'll read your mind thru magic, promise.
i wish them all the very best etc etc
this is the most "bless your heart" thing I've seen in a while.
Back in my day, we called this Network Meddling. For Veronica Mars, we had two different shortforms for her voiceovers, because some of them were very Network Mandated.