In all the well-meaning talk about how the flag belongs to all of us, I think something very important gets lost: the flag belongs to us *as something you ignore and forget about most, if not all, of the time*. Certainly not as something it's normal to hang down your street, let alone in your house.
Also, saying 'us' over and over again sounds very warm and inclusive, but who's included in 'us'? Not everyone I count as part of my community is British or in Britain - and rather a large proportion has loyalties outside England, myself included.
In the SDP's heyday Tony Benn said he thought they were quite a dangerous far-Right party, not centrist at all. I think this was based partly on personal dislike of David Owen, but it also says something about centrists generally -
they're (a) managerialists rather than democrats, believers in having the right people, or person, in charge (b) wouldbe custodians of state power, i.e. patriotic (c) to the Right of *you*, if you're on the Left and nothing in that list puts any limits on how far Right they can go.
Keir Starmer: the fulfilment of David Owen's dream. Maybe.
You think it’s weird when people put one up around football tournaments, for example?
Something that happens for four weeks every two years isn't 'normal', any more than the TV schedule during the Euros/WC is normal. Besides, I wouldn't expect to see flags on lamp-posts during a WC - not unless England were in the Final, at the very least.
You didn’t mention lampposts! You did mention streets and houses. I don’t do it myself but think it’s completely normal for people to put those things up outside their houses at a time like that.
Yes, but my point was about whether hanging flags outside/on/in your house is 'normal' full stop. There's a carnivalesque atmosphere during international football tournaments (when England's competing!), during which a lot of things temporarily become normal. That's not where we are now.
The funny thing about this is that if Tory-minded or just non-leftwing people started pointing out funny bits of behaviour done by relatively few people (hanging up pride flags for example) and saying it's "not normal", I bet more leftwing people would think that was well dodgy.
What's the difference? Why would we see one flag as normal and okay for people to display, the other not?
You're interpreting 'not normal' as 'weird and not OK', which (as I've already stressed) isn't how I'm using it. In terms of whether it's an ordinary thing to do outside of special occasions, something that would excite no comment if you saw it, hanging Pride flags isn't normal either.
As it goes, I wouldn't want to be pressured into hanging a Pride flag, and if I were I'd be glad when the chance came to take it down. Which is also how I feel about England flags - with the exception that I'm dubious about the motives of anyone hanging England flags outside of special occasions.
In my lifetime at least, demonstrative patriotism - outside of special occasions - has never been normal (unexceptional, ordinary, exciting no comment) in this country. That's the history that's being ignored by Starmer, Cooper et al.
Maybe that's changed a bit, and not necessarily because of the far right. Maybe it's just part of the general Americanisation of our culture. I bet some people put their hand on their heart when singing the national anthem nowadays.
Obviously I agree about not being pressured to fly flags. And I'm not into flags as an ideological symbol. I do see your point about England flags. But I do also think that if we start seeing a national flag as a divisive ideological symbol, that will really help those who want it to be one.
What I'm hearing is "we can fly it too - it's ours to identify with as well as theirs!". What I'd like to hear is "we can carry on not flying it and not having any strong feelings about it, without that being a problem for anyone".
The Daily Mail might have said that! There are lots of flags around, on pubs and cafes for example, and on people's profiles here, going without comment all the time. It seems to me displaying flags is pretty normal!
The initiative that started the current conversation about flags consisted of ordinary people displaying flags in residential streets. That's what I've been talking about, and it isn't normal (by which, I stress once more, I don't mean that it's weird or censurable).
I'm saying nothing about flags in online profiles, nothing about flags put up by commercial ventures, nothing about flags put up by local councils, and nothing about flags put up to mark a major patriotic occasion or sporting tournament.
How about the Scottish or Welsh flags? What makes them better, if they are? I think the only rationale that makes any sort of sense is if we've decided we will just give the far right the English and British flags because they want them.
There’s an oversteering danger in response to this flag thing. The far right will own every symbol of this country and any other symbol they want (Paddington, say!) if the rest of us start assuming any use of those things is abnormal and far right.