It's incredible how entitled people feel to creative labor just because it's well known. He's just a guy who writes stories for a living, for goodness sake. He doesn't deserve this.
It's incredible how entitled people feel to creative labor just because it's well known. He's just a guy who writes stories for a living, for goodness sake. He doesn't deserve this.
He's taken a good chunk of my money and not completed the job as promised. I hold him in the same contempt I do any rogue trader. Genuinely. He's taken on a task which he's either unable or unwilling to complete. He needs to give up and apologise to his audience.
he's not fixing your roof mate
You commissioned a personal story from GRRM? Living the dream there!
My dude, just don't buy unfinished series.. you'll be happier.
I get being disappointed, but have you considered going "that sucks" and then reading some different books? There's quite a lot of them, and some of them are rather good.
Well I can only read books which have actually been written, can't I?
Yep. Fortunately there are literally millions of those.
If an author doesn't write fast enough to meet your exacting standards, you're allowed to stop buying their books. Other completely legal and highly encouraged reactions include shutting up, moving on, and not being a whinging little git about it.
I can't not buy books which haven't been published, can I?
Where do you live that ASOIAF are the *only* books that have ever been published?
What?
Your wording has implied in several skeets that you are somehow unable to source other books from, possibly, series that have already been completed.
I keep being told to stop buying ASOIAF books. I can't stop buying them. They don't exist. I am aware of the existence of other books.
so you’re owed exactly what you paid for, 5 fucking books. Not an ending to the series. You bought individual books, not a subscription to a series of books.
Seven. I have paid for seven books (volumes, whatever you want to call them. There are seven). Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me seven times...
If you think that reading an enjoying a book means you got fooled then maybe reading isn’t for you?
if more were published, would you buy them?
No
So, there you go! You already have what you want.
Exactly.
When did you pay him for the books that aren’t for sale, exactly?
☝️
I can understand feeling, even strongly, that GRRM should either finish them or say that at this point it's very unlikely he will, and that stringing the fans along is unfair. But moving from that to claiming one's *entitled* to get the books and bizarrely claiming to have paid for them, is nuts.
I think it's reasonable enough to think less of the guy for saying for so long that it's coming for real honest - and there was a time before feast for crows when he still gave dates that he just blew past, and if I ever had beef it was for that, but he wised up. but there's no need to be a dick
Writing is a job, and anyone can quit their job. A surgeon can quit and open an ice cream parlor instead. You could argue it's a waste of their skills and training, but they're entitled to do it. The way people are yelling at GRRM, you'd think the lives of real people were at stake.
My guy I want more dunk and egg novellas as much as anyone else but we aren’t owed SHIT by any author - not even if he had them finished and chose to never release them. You are not owed the end of a series.
Laughs in *Wheel of Time*
Nobody owes you shit. Is it disappointing how the GoT books have gone? Yeah, sure. But unless you paid him ahead of time for the unwritten books, you can just fuck off with this entitled pissbaby attitude
People who think writing is just a contracting job like construction are demoralizing, to put it politely
Something about it reminds me of the way emotional/caregiving labor is both devalued and depended upon. Creatives are Mommy. "Mommy owes me a lifetime of emotional support, but it doesn't count as 'work.' Mommy is the whole world, but she isn't a whole person."
oh that makes . . . . too much sense.
Oh dear. This has given me something to consider on a personal level
Your emotional investment paid for exactly $0 (zero dollars) of GRRM's mortgage. So fuck off.
Also, this is the part where we mock you into oblivion for living so much in anticipation of the future that you forgot to enjoy the Right Now that is right in front of your face. So much disappointment at you're missing out on that you spurn the books you have on your shelf.
The voices in your head promising you something are not binding upon GRRM. You paid for a *book*, and you got a book. If you want more story and he's not providing it fast enough for you? Tough.
Just write some fanfic, dude, and leave everyone else out of it. Finish the story yourself if you’re so miffed.
Do you understand about publishers? There are series that aren't finished all the time because publishers decide in the middle that the books aren't selling well enough. YOU are not the one who decides whether the series will be finished. That's between GRRM and his publisher. Either one can say no.
Were the books you bought half-full of blank pages or something?
If I paid a roofer 50% up front, and he walked away after doing 50% of my roof, I’d be upset. That’s analogous to stopping a series part way through.
So I buy one book and hate it, and the author tracks me down three years later and says "here's the rest of the heptalogy you implicitly agreed to purchase", do I have any legal recourse or am I forced to honour the unspoken contract?
does this interaction qualify as @thelouvreof.bsky.social material
I hope your lawsuit against Television over every cancelled series goes well.
They finished the story on teevee, I’m sure the book would have been pretty much like that
Entitled and dumb, what a combination
What an absurd analogy. You NEED a roof. You do not NEED a book. You WANT a book, but you will not die, your house will not leak, your possessions will not be destroyed, mold will not engulf your drywall. You personally do not have a work-for-hire contract with an author. Don’t be ridiculous.
I deeply regret looking back in the thread to see what prompted this reply. Jesus wept.
Nah man, fuck Vergil for not finishing the Aenied. There is no joy to be reaped from a project even partially completed, that’s why everyone’s forgotten about the Canterbury Tales.
I read N.K. Jemisin’s first book in what was supposed to be “The Great Cities” trilogy and was slavering for the next books. She released the second and it was great but also… enough? I was confused until I read her notes on it where she said that she thought would be a trilogy but then it wasn’t.
Also, if we’re going this way, Dickens (“Edward Drood”) and Schubert (“Unfinished Symphony”) apparently need to meet some necromancers or something? (I’m actually upset about not having an ending to Drood though. Someone should write one.)
I'm upset about the cliffhanger ending of Reboot but acting like that's a the writers violating a contract they had with me personally would be patently absurd
Digging up Stieg Larsson and hollering at him until he coughs up the missing seven Millennium books
And again, if we’re going into negative numbers, Douglas Adams is owed back pay and I can’t even begin to calculate whatever the fuck is going on with the “Wheel of Time” situation.
Eerie coincidental post? bsky.app/profile/tere...
And dear god, I’m fully raisin-pilled on the “Agatha Raisin” books (I’m ashamed but I love them dearly). I think I might be an indentured serf in Oxfordshire by now?
I’m still waiting on Chaucer to write the rest of the Canterbury Tales.
Drood meets a paramour in a London pub and finds out it's actually his wife?
But also! Dying is not the only ‘allowed’ reason’ to stop working on something! Becky Chambers nailed this point in “The Galaxy, and the Ground Within” “Because I didn’t want to. And when it comes to a person’s body, that is all the reason there ever needs to be” Writing is a bodily effort.
And, let's be specific here, if you make a contract with a roofer, the contract _specifies_ that you're going to get the full roof! You don't sign contracts for half a roof and then, if you like the half a roof, sign another contract with another payment for the other half!
Nobody signed a contract with GRRM for the full series! They bought a book, then bought another book in an entirely independent transaction!
This. Also, this is why God created fan fiction. I paid for the books I got, and if the author doesn’t finish the series, no one can stop me from finishing it in my head.
Right? Go nuts! World’s your slash oyster.
And I have no idea why Bluesky saw fit to include that URL. Sorry.
also, isn't each book considered it's own complete product? like you bought each book individually. it's not like you bought the book and pages 55-76 are just missing. now thinking of people yelling at George Lucas if he will give star wars to disney to finish the movies (in 1988) when he dies.
In our world, yes.
Yes. It's more like the owner of your favorite restaurant deciding to close it down. You're allowed to be sad! But the owner is allowed to make decisions about his business. Yelling that he has a duty to keep cooking for as long as you want is not only absurd, but spectacularly rude.
No, it's not. One roof is one BOOK. A series would be multiple roofs. Unless you paid him a retainer to build the whole rest of the neighborhood, he isn't responsible for where you chose to get comfortable.
There's a difference between a series of separate stories set in the same world, and one single story told across multiple books. He's even doing the former without completing the latter. A Song of Ice and Fire. One song. Singular. It's a single, as yet incomplete, story.
So? No writer owes you an ending to anything but the BOOK YOU BOUGHT.
Like, I too would like it if Martin would finish the series! I, too, am a bit grumpy about the way it’s gone and the incredibly unsatisfying TV arc! But sometimes in life, we just don’t get the things we want. My desires don’t create obligations in others.
And like, I’ve been dabbling in writing fantasy novels and guess what? It’s really hard when you have other obligations! Even if writing is the ONLY thing you do it’s the literal definition of art not science. My want for an ending is meaningless in the face of the massive weight of creation.
This! Exactly! Anyone having a tantrum over a writer not finishing a *series* on their preferred schedule is utterly ignorant of the process of making art and the work that goes into it, especially a series with this depth of history, characters - just thinking of the planning gives me a headache.
Personally, I think it's just too much for him to finish it up at this point, he's over it and it's just a chore for him or he doesn't know how to wrap it all up but... Holy crap are some people just entitled brats about this.
He felt that way throughout the final season of GOT. That was terrible storytelling.
that....wasn't Martin tho? That was the showrunners?
He wasn't consulted on the last 3-4 seasons of the show.
I think the fact that he’s doing all sorts of other things in that same universe without finishing the main story makes it pretty clear that you’re correct.
If I felt that they did, I'd be so mad at Scott Westerfield for the not-really-an-ending ending of the Risen Empire books. But I can't blame him; the Uglies YA series was apparently a far better earner.
Which of the books that you purchased did you think contained the ending?
I've been starting at this whole conversation open-mouthed. This is the most self-centered, entitled shit I've seen in a while. Not *ever* because dear God are people demanding of fandom artists to give them free art, but holy shit.
I just read through it and I'm in disbelief. Apparently I could sue a bunch of authors who haven't finished series I wanted to read? I'm not clear on the backstory with the Ambrai series but it sounds rough enough that Rawn gets a pass. I'm still slightly irked about the Starshield books though.
I’m gonna sue the ones who haven’t started yet.
Think we have a chance at equitable relief?
Like...I understand the frustration. I don't expect the series to get a proper ending. I'm not thrilled about it. But the notion that fans are owed more books because they started a book series they really like is just...dumb.
I get the frustration. But you roll the dice anytime you pick up an unfinished series. Authors are mortal too, and sometimes unexpectedly so. And *they* are entitled to tell the story they want. Damn, the idea that a fan would tell an author "write less" blows my mind.
I fail to see how this is substantially different from a TV series being cancelled before its storie is done Do I wish I had gotten the rest? Yes. Am I entitled to it? No. Would I call it fraud or theft? Also no, because I'm not a moron
Why do people seem to assume I want more books? I don't want more books. If anything I wanted fewer books. Fewer, shorter books.
You know what, maybe let's try and find some common ground here. What things do you like, aside from people writing their masterpieces to suit your very particular needs? What are your hobbies? Interests? What do you create, build, make?
"Why do people assume I'm not a complete idiot who wants the ending of the story I claim was stolen for me???" You know what, that's on us. Won't underestimate you in that regard again...
.... Then buy books that are shorter? Most authors I know write books that are, in essence, as long as they need to be. I mean, book 1 weighed in at almost 700 pages. If you wanted shorter books, probably the wrong series to delve into.
Here you got. A complete trilogy, all the books are fairly short and it’s still got dragons in it! More of them than GRRM’s books, even. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Fath...
If the covenant wasn’t for more books, what was it for?
While simultaneously demanding more books to end the story. Don’t lie to my face. If nothing else, it’s just impolite.
In which case, stop whining for an apology you don't deserve, move on, and read something else.
If I had a fanbase like this, I would be sorely tempted to make Weiss and Benioff write the concluding novels just to watch the whole thing burn. Or maybe Brian Herbert, if he's willing.
Good God you're a weirdo.
Because I like a story to have an ending? Because I have ideas about how some books could have been improved? I mean I am a weirdo but probably not for the reasons you think I am.
Probably because you think your past purchase of books entitles you to dictate someone's future labor you are Martin's customer, not his boss and just like any other customer if you don't like the service you can take your business elsewhere
He's the one who said he was gonna write the thing.
so what Pepsi said Crystal Pepsi was gonna revolutionize the soft drink industry, you wanna go bitch about that next? You're not his boss and you're not fuckin' entitled to anything. He wrote books, you bought 'em, that's the transaction
No, not for those reasons.
Okay everyone who thought their GRRM books contained voting shares please raise your hands
This isn’t the way, Dwight. It really isn’t. Don’t do it.
George RR Martin does not have a legal contract with you. He has one with his publisher. Neither party has any business obligation to you personally. Sure, it'd make you happy if GRRM finished the story. But he's under no obligation to work for your happiness either.
"But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done." - GRRM in 2019 @legaleagle.tv ruling? 🙃
I don't even like him, so this is coming from an objective party: being an avid fan does not entitle you to dictate an artist's work.
Nah, dog, this ain’t it. Writers don’t owe you an ending to their series before they die, that’s just breathtakingly entitled.
This should go in the "Dumb Analogy Hall of Fame" Among other things that sends this to the HOF, you spent about $85 (give or take) on these books over 15 years, and compare it to a ROOF?
Dude. No.
Oh! Did you have a contract with GRRM for the remainder of the books?
Shit, Douglas Adams’s estate must be owed a TON of back pay for writing two too many books for his trilogy!!
I slipped him a list of my demands at an autograph line in 2012, HE KNOWS HIS OBLIGATIONS 😉
You bought a book. You got a book. Transaction complete.
The only contract for unfinished work is between Martin and his publisher. You have no claim to that no matter how big a fan you think you are.
You paid for a book, you got a book.
You...paid for Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring already? Don't know how to tell you this but...you got scammed and not by Martin.
what… unless you paid money for a book that doesn’t exist, you paid for a product that he delivered. Buying a book doesn’t guarantee the story will be concluded in the book itself
What have you paid for that wasn't delivered? I mean, I'm sure there must be something, right? Or your complaint would make no sense.
Well I've paid for seven volumes in what was supposed to be a trilogy so already more than double the original deal. Plus TV subscription. The *story* hasn't been delivered.
Were the books empty, or containing something other than the story, or are you mad you didn't get the ending in the books you purchased? You bought books, you read them, they had words in them. If they're not the words you wanted then that's just too bad, maybe write your own.
Wow, so you paid for seven books and got seven books? How terribly awful for you.
No it's worse than that. I paid for seven volumes and got five books. What a grift.
Oh I see! Where did you pay for the other two volumes? Did you pre-order?
This person just posted that they have upset the GRRM fans which is hilarious because I gently hate his books but come the fuck on, you really think any author is gonna be down for folks telling us our apparently impending death will mess up their tbr list?
I would immediately turn into my grandmother - "every time you ask, it's another 5 minutes" (or years).
I mean, I remember the meme from usenet: "Every time you ask when the next book is out, GRRM kills another Stark "
I bear him no ill will, but there’s a long-ass way between me and a fan.
i threw the first book through my room at 20 pages in /also not a fan, but that's not how you treat authors
yeah it's not how you treat PEOPLE. I suspect some folks have forgotten authors are people, tho.
Well, most seem to have forgotten people are people.
bsky.app/profile/dwig...
*grabs popcorn*
If a murder mystery trilogy promised to reveal the killer in book 3 and book 3 was never written, I would regret buying the first 2 books. I probably wouldn't buy other books from the author. If it was a common trend, I probably would stop buying books from that were part of an incomplete series.
Back when I worked in restaurants we recognized that most dissatisfied people don't complain. They just don't come back. I'm not going to complain or confront authors. I'm just going to be less enthusiastic about book purchases and do it less often.
Huh. See, I’d figure they just go to other restaurants or read other authors. It’s not like people stop eating food entirely because one restaurant disappoints them. It’s genuinely an alien concept to me that if one author disappointed me, I’d read less?
Using your analogy it's maybe a volume thing? I reckon someone whose been disappointed on 3 of the 5 occasions they've eaten out that year is more likely to stop eating out than someone whose been disappointed 10 times out of 100
I damn near stopped going to theaters after ID4 and the first Tom Cruise Mission Impossible. There was one more movie that summer that made me want to not watch movies.
i mean, if people are starved for new fiction, Stephen King is right there. he’s the only author with that kind of catalog where i’m 100% certain he doesn’t use ghost writers. i’m sure he has TONS of help writing, which helps, but the man has retired like 7 times & it hasn’t stuck.
I am perplexed other authors defend this, especially those who write series. Why would I start a new series when the author has told me that I have no right to expect they will finish it?
Well, there have been 2 very anticipated series (by Martin and Rothfuss) that may never conclude. I have limited reading time and I am often overwhelmed by the number of choices at a library or bookstore, to the point I may leave with nothing.
Hear me out but you could just not buy the books. Libraries exist for a reason. Fandom doesn't need to be a hairshirt my dude.
You have *not* paid for seven volumes. You have not paid for either volume 6 or volume 7. I get the frustration, but making that claim is simply not true.
By this metric, you got every volume you paid for.
An uncharitable person might have thought you were referring to the fact that ASOIAF is currently planned to be a full 7 volumes, and that you were claiming to have paid for books 6 and 7. Which it certainly seems like! 😅
There are seven published volumes. I have paid for seven volumes in this series. There are seven. 7. VII. 111. Seven.
Weird. I have the same amount of story as you, but only 5 books.
I think they may have only split up ASOS and ADWD for certain editions. Mine are (were) UK paperback.
did you buy the last book? like, a pre-order or something?
You didn’t buy a story. You bought books.
apparently this cat thinks his expectations were also included in the price of those books I wonder how many times his parents told him no
Oh wow, he didn't have the entire series available for you on Day One, and you have to wait for him to write them after getting paid for the previous books? That is definitely a new thing that no reader of an ongoing series has ever had to cope with before.
I'm assuming here that you paid for individual books, none of which were advertised as being *the story*; if I'm wrong in that assumption and you paid for *the story*, then I sincerely apologize.
It's been thirty years lol. GRRM is such a massive loser.
He doesn't owe you the entire potential of his future life's work just because you previously bought something from him. What is he, your serf? Touch grass, man. You're talking like some spoiled princeling he would write in as a villain.
Ok, but not a loser who owes you anything.
Right like you can be reasonably annoyed at his probably never finishing the series at this point. But there's a way to treat people regardless.
Yeah, I wouldn't get up in his face about his own mortality over it.
No, not just me. Several million readers worldwide. I live in a small flat, struggling with bills and go out to work every day. He's a multimillionaire, in part because of money which I have given him, and seemingly sits on his fat arse all day doing fuck all. It's disrespectful.
It’s dragons man, calm down
He doesn’t work for you. You have enjoyed his work; and resent that he’s not jumping to your tune. Sucks to be you; because no artist owes the audience anything. If he’d dropped dead of a heart attack 20 years ago it would be “what a loss” but because he’s not inspired you’re being an asshole.
I have no interest in GRRM. I’ve not read any of the the Song of Ice and Fire. As I said, artists make art for their own reasons (be it the art, or the bills, or fame, or what have you). The audience isn’t owed anything other than the art which is made.
I'm sorry, do you actually believe he exists to generate entertainment for you, and if he chooses not to do so, that in some way injures you? I hate to break it to you but he's actually a human being in his own right.
Being fat is not actually a crime. It's jn large part genetic.
That was a poor choice of word by me. I should have written "lazy arse"
bsky.app/profile/tams...
lmao what the fuck is wrong with you
You could have waited to buy any of the books until the series was complete. You could have checked the books out from a library. You could have borrowed the books from a friend. And you have chosen to do this instead.
Yeah I'll just wait for him to finish...
have you read Stephen King's "Misery," and if so, who do you think the antagonist of that book is
Per his timeline he's been deliberately saying things to upset GRRM fans for hours, because that's a normal thing to do on a lovely summer weekend
I've rarely blocked someone so fast 🤣 It's such an unbelievably shit take, even for a troll!
Everyone knows that when you start a series you risk it ending badly or not at all. Everyone should know that speaking harshly to someone frozen up in the middle of a hard, intricate job will freeze them up further. The better the series, the more it hurts. That's the dues you pay.
No matter what he writes or how well it's written, you and a billion other "fans" will shred it online the moment it's released. Half the folks posting two-hour Hateraide videos won't even have read the damn thing before they do it. Martin knows this, and every other working writer knows it, too.