I'm for anything that persuades more of my fellow Jews to oppose Israel's government, but the way Mandy and especially his wife center the moral obligation on the way it impacts Jews makes me uncomfortable. The connection to Princess Bride is a good illustration of the true moral point, though.
You are supposed to feel uncomfortable. Israel's hijacking of Judaism as a means of scapegoating Jewish people for an imperialist genocide is the most antisemitic thing to take place in our life times
You missed my point entirely. I clearly agree Israel's actions are bad for Jews. And it's still not the main thing we should focus on in terms of what's wrong with Israel's actions -- centering how Israel's actions hurt me is the wrong focus.
What do you think is the main thing we should focus on?
The harm the genocide imposes on its victims. Honestly, if I have to tell you that, I don't expect you to actually join that fight.
lol ok?
Also, to be clear, I'm not saying we can't talk about the harm Israel's actions has on Jews. We totally should. But it needs to be couched in the recognition of the greater victims.
And this is how I interpreted Mandy’s message. 🤷♂️
Hearing his entire message in context, at least he acknowledges Palestinian suffering. His wife didn't seem to care about that at all.
I think that frame is necessary when dealing with a population that incredibly selfish.
Maybe. I just said it made me uncomfortable
I’m a jew by birthright who’s opposed the Netanyahu regime long before 10/7. I feel little if any connection to Israel and resent that a political party and a military wraps itself in a religion & culture to commit genocide. IMHO Bibi has caused more harm to Jews worldwide than Hamas could dream of
The obv response is that genocide is never justifiable and always morally reprehensible no matter who is committing it and why. But I also see the rise of anti-semitism as a response and it scares me and does make me uncomfortable.
People need to do better about seperating the Israeli govt & the Jewish people from the actions of the Israeli Regime. I’m not an Israeli. I didn’t vote for this. It makes me sick that to many these actions are being done in my name. It’s dangerous to start painting all Jews with this broad brush.
While I agree with most of Patenkins message and I’ve always been a big fan I do think he could have conveyed the message a lil better.
I think I agree with everything he said, including that Netanyahu is a threat to Jews. I just said I was uncomfortable with the centering of that point, especially the way his wife did it.
Yes, that's what annoys me too.
This is a small clip from a larger interview I suggest you both seek out.
I did. Most of what I said are about things that aren't in this clip. I agree with them that Israel's policies are harmful to Jews, but I was uncomfortable with how they centered it. I don't disagree with the substance of what they said.
This clip is actually a part where it's not about "Israel's policies are bad for Jews." It's about how immoral supporting Israel is, which is an appropriate centering topic. But the longer interview is much more focused on how Jews are harmed by Israel's actions, his wife especially.
Yes. Exactly that. If he/they are using the 'harm to Jews' to catalyse Jews to 'wake up', then I could be more tolerant, but he/they aren't. I agree that it is 'harming' Jews worldwide, but it's the perception of Jews as perpetual 'victims' which is being harmed (mostly). No religious group
is, nor has been, MORE protected (in modern history), NONE. That's what bothers me about this interview and Olmert etc.
Same. Exactly the same. I may screenshot your replies and plagiarise them, they are better articulated than mine.
I suggest you watch this, in return. He speaks of UK education/political assertions, but they apply across UK/USA/EUROPE William Dalrymple: ‘Britain’s education system sold me a lie about Palestine’ | Middle East Eye share.google/JmB2WVleH41W...
I've watched it all, thank you.
Mandy is only stating the truth. Remember this didn't just start with the justified Hamas attack. This has been brewing for a long time. Just how are people to rebel against genocide? It's to fight back. Js
Okay... I agree it's true. It's the centering of the impact of Jews I found uncomfortable. I have relatives in Israel. If I focused substantially (Mandy) or entirely (his wife) on the effect of Israel's actions on them, I hope most people would think I had the wrong focus, too.
Personally, I'd rather center this around the effect these horrible actions are having on the direct victims of those actions. You can make the point about its impact on Jews and on Israel without centering the discussion around that point.
I also think viewing October 7 as justified is really problematic and makes it hard to take your perspective completely seriously. You're entitled to your own views on these issues, but you won't catch me arguing rape, murder and kidnapping are justified in any situation.
I never focus on the terroists it's always the victims the Palestinians as everyone should.
Now you've slipped into a antisemitic approach that the other guy is criticizing. Centering criticisms of Israel's policies around the impact on innocent Jews does not focus on the terrorists. You've conflated me with Israel in the context of Israel's wrongful conduct, and I do not appreciate that.
Are you referring to what i said? Funny how you refer to me as antisemetic, which is as far from the truth as one can get. It's also a cheap shot just because I support the indigenous people of Palestine. Also im referring to the terrorists the zionists.
I say: I'm uncomfortable with centering the discussion of what's wrong with Israel on its impact on Jews. You: Yeah, "I never focus on the terrorists." I wasn't either. I was focusing on innocent Jews. But you heard "Jews" and thought "terrorist." You were NOT talking about only zionists.
Yes, I was. If you didn't understand that then, what can I say. Why are you picking a fight with me, when you know I've been referring to the zionists as the terroists to include netanyahu. The victims are the indigenous Palestinians.
I'm not picking a fight. I'm pointing out where you quite obviously conflated Jews and terrorists because that's what you do when people say bigoted things.
So now you're calling me names because you dont agree with me. I haven't called you a nazi fascist like the zionists. Maybe you should focus on the starvation and genocide being perpetrated on the Palestinians. As well as apartheid being forced upon the victims by the occupiers.
Why should we always focus on the Jews and not the real criminals the zionists and the victims the Palestinians?
Zionism did not come out of nothing. Zionists today are Zionists for a reason. The reason is a reaction - a reaction to the hate they receive from people like yourself. If haters like you did not exist, they would have been no Zionism and Israel never would have been created
So, to be clear, if there were not people who think that Israel's actions now are bad, nobody would be a Zionist? I... it's... I don't even know where to start to explain how much that's nonsense.
I get what youre saying. I do not want to be misunderstood regarding how I feel. I specifically use the word zionists and not jews, because I know most news do not support this illegal genocide. I could be wrong, but do believe most Jewish people do not support netanyahu or the apartheid regime.
Nobody thought you were focusing on Jews. I'm trying to understand the either incoherent or insane post made in response to you.
I don't understand that either. Completely ignorant comment based on bullshit.
I mean, I'm literally just commenting on what you wrote. I'm not sure how the word "ignorant" applies here, other than that you're mad/embarrassed at being called out for your likely unintentional conflation of Jews and terrorists.
To refer to me as a hater instead of a realist says alot about you. So you support apartheid and genocide. Check yourself as to whom is the actual hater. Smdh
You need to go back to the Balfour Declaration to understand how the zionists came about. The focus should always be on the victims of this genocide always the indigenous people of Palestine.
I get what youre saying however I just can't get away from what is actually happening with our money and other supports. We are complicit in every Palestinian death. I agree with Bernie.
Correction , I meant Mandy not Bernie.
It's weird that every time I say "I agree with what Mandy and his family said, but I don't agree with the centering the point around the impact on Jews," the response I get is, "but but but it's bad for Jews!"
It IS bad for Jews and that does matter. But it's wildly narcissistic to center the issue around that instead of around the impact on the victims of the ethnic cleansing.
Good point