Feels like a lot of conflict and confusion could be avoided if we all acknowledged that not all women are feminists, and that not all of their actions need to be—or can be—justified in feminist terms.
Replies
I was just thinking how Nancy Mace is like the perfect example of a white woman who is oppressed by patriarchy and copes with that powerlessness by bullying everyone she sees as "beneath" her. It's not an uncommon thing and some people need to realize that.
nov 23, 2024, 5:24 pm • 16 0 • view
"The oppressed oppressor"
nov 23, 2024, 10:32 pm • 0 0 • view
Fairly sure Margaret Atwood has explored this archetype several times, from differing perspectives, in her work. Some women don’t get much of a choice if they want to survive - and unless/until our agency is truly our own we are going to smack our heads on this low bar.
nov 24, 2024, 6:44 am • 0 0 • view
Nancy Mace is a literal congresswoman. She has plenty of power and agency. And instead of just leaving her trans colleague alone, Mace decided to bully her publicly and try to make her life worse. She had plenty of choice.
nov 24, 2024, 5:06 pm • 0 0 • view
I’m not going to argue with you about that *at all*. Her actions are vile. Her attitudes are disgusting. I’m taking issue with the wider statement: we are not free and we are not equal.
nov 24, 2024, 5:13 pm • 0 0 • view
I'm confused then. I'm not sure what wider statement you are referring to that implies women are equal and free. I pointed out that Nancy Mace is a woman, and therefore oppressed by the patriarchy. And that she is white, so she benefits from white supremacy. These two things coexist in injustice.
nov 24, 2024, 5:17 pm • 0 0 • view
I wasn’t disagreeing with you, which is possibly where the confusion has come in? Complicity and collaboration with oppressive systems is something we see a lot of, and it’s often a survival tactic. In Nancy Mace’s case, I very much doubt it is. Also, she’s awful.
nov 24, 2024, 5:30 pm • 0 0 • view
Ok, that's fair enough.
nov 24, 2024, 5:31 pm • 0 0 • view
Nancy Mace has agency. A lot of it. Don't excuse openly bigoted women.
nov 24, 2024, 12:36 pm • 0 0 • view
I’m not excusing her. She’s awful.
nov 24, 2024, 5:04 pm • 1 0 • view
nov 26, 2024, 2:18 am • 0 0 • view
Women are fully fledged human beings capable of the entire spectrum of human behavior and sometimes we do bad or stupid things.
nov 23, 2024, 6:10 pm • 5 1 • view
HMMM. What are you saying? What is a "feminist?" Is there only one "feminism?" What actions by women are justified/critiqued/explained by "feminism?"
nov 23, 2024, 9:27 pm • 0 0 • view
This belief that if a woman does it and you want her to do it, or think she should be “allowed” to do it, the whatever “it” is must be somehow feminist, has led people to advance definitions of “feminism” that are contentless at best and oxymoronic at worst.
nov 23, 2024, 5:27 pm • 199 23 • view
Any ethical agency depends on free choice as a precondition, but choice alone cannot be the end-all-be-all of any ethics! If feminism is an ethical criteria (and I think it is!) then “choice” cannot be the only condition needed to meet it.
nov 23, 2024, 5:48 pm • 130 11 • view
Hence the absolute shitshow that was the late 90s/early oughts fetish for "choice feminism" - "if they make GGW porn in exchange for a free t-shirt, that's their choice!" "if they drop out of STEM b/c it's a boy's club, that's their choice!" etc.
nov 23, 2024, 10:32 pm • 2 0 • view
And if a teen drinks at a party and gets raped, that was her choice! Seriously when I taught sex ed to 9th graders, this is what they said. Neoliberal elevating anything that befalls you to a consequence of “bad choices.” Erasing the unequal conditions in which these acts take place.
nov 25, 2024, 8:03 pm • 0 0 • view
But we don’t have full freedom of choice. That’s *entirely* the point. We are constrained by things we did not choose and cannot simply choose to be free of. So how does “ethical agency” function in these constrained conditions?
nov 24, 2024, 6:36 am • 0 0 • view
Of course, "free will" is to a great extent an illusion. The thing is, you can't have a functional society unless you assume people do have it. It's a paradox (although maybe someone with a background in philosophy has a better explanation).
nov 24, 2024, 6:54 pm • 1 0 • view
Or even if SHE wants to do it.
nov 23, 2024, 6:29 pm • 1 0 • view
Agreed. That’s conflating the feminism of believing women should *have* choice with the not always feminist decisions those women actually make. I.e. it is feminism to agree that women should be allowed to make their own choices for themselves, even if those choices may be anti-feminist.
nov 23, 2024, 5:35 pm • 3 1 • view
This has annoyed me forever. "I want to shave my legs but I'm a feminist so shaving must be a feminist act." No it's not! It's also still fine to do! Not every little choice we make has to be feminist.
nov 23, 2024, 7:29 pm • 2 1 • view
I think it goes hand in hand with women feeling like they're "a bad feminist" for like, struggling with body image, or wanting to be a stay at home mom. "Feminist" is not a synonym for "badass career woman" or whatever, and focusing on how "feminist" individuals are is a waste of time.
nov 23, 2024, 7:34 pm • 1 0 • view
Well I do think that these explicit capitulations to gendered hierarchy are anti-feminist, but my point is that they do not need to be rehabilitated in feminist terms, and that it’s dishonest to do so.
nov 23, 2024, 7:41 pm • 4 0 • view
Agreed. I just hate to see women feel guilty and torn up about small things, as if their leg hair is a litmus test or their only possible contribution to feminism.
nov 23, 2024, 7:49 pm • 4 0 • view
Well, as a verified 90s feminist who got criticized for 1) wearing lipstick, 2) not being vegetarian, 3) dyeing my hair, 4) being femme generally, I can attest that there has been plenty of effort BY FEMINISTS to police the term's bounds. But I never declared lipstick etc. "a feminist act" either.
nov 23, 2024, 10:36 pm • 0 0 • view
I can acknowledge it -- I've been running into it since I was born -- but I still don't like it.
nov 23, 2024, 5:27 pm • 0 0 • view
The pop feminism urge to replace the liberation of women with the celebration of women leads to a lot of bad takes
nov 23, 2024, 5:22 pm • 27 2 • view
i like the celebration of women too, though. people are too hard on us as it is...
nov 23, 2024, 5:44 pm • 4 0 • view
it's infantilizing and distracting
nov 23, 2024, 7:20 pm • 2 0 • view
how so?
nov 23, 2024, 7:20 pm • 0 0 • view
are men celebrated for being men?
nov 23, 2024, 7:22 pm • 1 0 • view
I mean … yes. 😂
nov 23, 2024, 7:22 pm • 9 0 • view
Not in the way women are, which feels patronising - the yass queen and girlboss stuff, I mean the very names are demeaning
nov 23, 2024, 7:24 pm • 5 0 • view
people call men "king" all the time, so I don't see the difference?🤨
nov 24, 2024, 4:53 pm • 1 0 • view
You might want to take a long, hard look at the origins of “Yass Queen” before you repeat that particular hot take. But “girlboss” can fuck ALL the way off.
nov 24, 2024, 6:39 am • 1 0 • view
its origins have little to do with the way it's been coopted and widely used in pop feminism nowadays. holy cows are counterproductive anyway, which is a somewhat ironic thing to point out in this particular discussion
nov 24, 2024, 10:06 am • 0 0 • view
i rly don't see the issue with what you call "pop feminism." like, yah feminism should be popular and come in many flavors!😄
nov 24, 2024, 5:27 pm • 1 0 • view
Point being, it was co-opted - but it’s also still be used in its original context. It’s less a sacred cow, more a disputed territory. And evidence that a certain, specific stripe of “feminism” ruins everything it touches.
nov 24, 2024, 5:09 pm • 1 0 • view
i don't rly mind the phrase girlboss myself. i think it's silly how ppl on the internet like to police how women talk about themselves and other women. if men can call each other king, then women (whether self-employed or not) can use girlboss😅
nov 24, 2024, 5:20 pm • 0 0 • view
I really dislike the term and the behaviours that slot around it - partly because they support a corporate culture that’s pretty toxic. Also, the “girl” in “girlboss” makes my teeth itch. But I am one person with an opinion, not the feminism police.
nov 24, 2024, 5:37 pm • 0 0 • view
regularly, yes
nov 23, 2024, 7:23 pm • 1 0 • view
Like that's a problem?
nov 23, 2024, 5:25 pm • 0 0 • view
I am not a fan of the slippery slope argument - it’s a logical fallacy and it avoids talking about real things in real terms. So let’s define the territory. Are we talking about trad wives? Sex work? Porn? Care work? House work? Having male partners?
nov 24, 2024, 6:31 am • 0 0 • view
I think we need to be *very* specific when - as self-identified feminists (because there is no other kind of feminist) - we start talking about other women’s choices and potential “harm”.
nov 24, 2024, 6:29 am • 0 0 • view
How do you define "feminist" in this argument?
nov 23, 2024, 5:49 pm • 0 0 • view
I define feminism as a political commitment to ending the oppression that women face because they are women.
nov 23, 2024, 6:01 pm • 20 0 • view
Yup, its not feminism just because a woman made a choice, if her choice hurts other women and/or impinges (or aims to impinge) on other women’s ability to make choices
nov 23, 2024, 6:42 pm • 7 0 • view
Or if it encourages them to make choices that increase their dependence, indignity, or subordination. ✨
nov 23, 2024, 6:45 pm • 10 0 • view
Exactly—and moreso if they’ve internalized the notion that dependency and subordination are empowering…
nov 23, 2024, 6:51 pm • 4 0 • view
Oh god are people really doing “choice feminism” again? Bah. Does *everything* have to be cyclical?
nov 23, 2024, 6:59 pm • 1 0 • view
I don’t know about cyclical but it comes and goes in waves
nov 23, 2024, 9:49 pm • 1 0 • view
I actually don't understand the impulse some people have to label all actions by women as feminist. Can you eat a burger in a feminist way? Can you take a shower in a feminist way? Why should every action have to be feminist in order for feminism to be useful??
nov 23, 2024, 5:28 pm • 3 0 • view
Men are as sensitive to "masculine" labels & behaviors, though. As long as "feminist" labels are attached to behaviors that represent freedom from historic stereotypes & roles assigned to women by men for millenia, it's valid. PS. How we shower is not your concern 😉 @moiradonegan.bsky.social
nov 23, 2024, 5:38 pm • 1 0 • view
You're contrasting "masculine" with "feminist" which makes no sense. The contrasting adjective is "feminine" and perhaps there is a "feminine" way to eat a burger or shower, but I'm deeply skeptical. And nor is it "feminist" to declare it so.
nov 23, 2024, 10:34 pm • 2 0 • view
Thank you, Dr Addison. The gentleman to whom I replied seems to have understood the intent of my reply, grammatic rules notwithstanding. But please, do enjoy your evening.
nov 24, 2024, 3:20 am • 0 0 • view
I'd be exhausted if I thought of everything I do in those terms 😩
nov 23, 2024, 6:30 pm • 1 0 • view
And yes that’s frustrating but still true
nov 23, 2024, 5:21 pm • 2 0 • view