We were talking about fairness and being competitive in some disciplines. Is that specific enough? There's also to part of feeling safe and private in female-only spaces. Which is not the same as *being* safe of course. But in order to *feel* safe there has to be a discussion about unwarranted fear.

fairness doesn't exist in sports, so that's a bad faith conversation to begin with trans women aren't unsafe for female-only spaces nor does anyone have a right to FEELING safe, that's just not a thing

The fact that perfect fairness doesn't exist doesn't excuse deliberately making it a lot more unfair. There are rules about doping and any cis girl taking a fraction of the testosterone a trans girl without HRT got would be banned immediately.

is it fair for a pre-pubescent cis girl to play sports against a pubescent cis girl?

is it fair for a 4'11" cis girl to play basketball against 6'2" cis girls?

She probably won't. But that's part of the natural distribution, not the result of massive doping, even if it's unvoluntary and natural.

wait so female dominant puberty is NOT doping but male dominant puberty IS doping? i don't think you know what doping is

I know what doping is. Do you know what testosterone is and the different levels in male and female bodies? Female puberty isn't doping for women, male puberty isn't doping for men The higher testosterone level during male puberty is the reason why sports are segregated by sex in the first place.

probably won't what? i asked if it's FAIR

It's as fair or unfair as any other example of natural variation. Different than changing the definition of a protected category in a way that negates the reasons for the protection. If you want to change that definition without destroying it you have to find compromises that won't include everyone.

ok, this is good, you want to talk about definition what is your definition of woman that excludes all trans women and doesn't exclude any cis women?

trans woman is also a protected category, unless the transphobes get their way

You can't have it both way. If cis girls don't have a right to respect, privacy and feeling safe than why should everyone care about the feelings of trans people?

im literally only asking for it one way: equal human rights to participate in society

nobody does have to give a shit about our feelings and they currently don't. no Trans person is demanding our feelings be protected under law, only our rights to participate equally in society