What the author means by “bringing politics into the classroom” is, eg, encouraging students to participate in a pro-Palestine march with you [or a pro-Israel march].

Thank you so much for the perspective and clarification!

There is no "bringing politics into the classroom", because politics are already there, even in primary grades. Teaching is a matter of "parting the waters" through the prejudices that students already have.

yes, but elementary school teachers don’t (and shouldn’t) encourage their students to participate in pro-Palestine marches, right?

Ya if I understand this correctly we all agree with - Teaching the world is political is ok Teaching how your discipline interacts with that is ok Teaching civics and how civil activity plays is even ok Teaching "we are all going to protest" is not ok. Again can't read article.

That’s about right, although I think there’s room for honest disagreement about *how much* or *how often* one should talk about the political dimensions of the subject, especially but not exclusively in STEM.

Ya my discipline is health sciences and public health so it's hard for me to make generalizations to others. It's every second of every day in my world. I do respect other fields it may vary. Though, having sat on faculty senate curriculum, I do think there's more room for it.

Elementary school teachers should teach the truth about history and current events. Obviously they should not instruct children to join marches, but they should provide the truth with which children can draw conclusions and integrate it into their moral development.

Yes, agreed. College instructors should also not encourage their students to join marches

College instructors usually teach adults who can make decisions for themselves. I don't think a prof should require it but I don't see the same issue of coercion with adults and I think that matters. I am ok with a prof saying "I am doing this and you can too if you want."

There are definitely differences based on the student. Not exactly the same, but still a political action - I have invited my students to join me in contacting their representatives. In fact, I send weekly updates from a partner about political things they can do (that relate to our content).

There’s also levels of students and content, mine are graduate students learning about things like food policy. They are choosing to pursue these things. It’d be irresponsible for me not to show policy implications and opportunities. Might be less true for a freshman intro course.

“Explaining policy implications” is an extremely far cry from “I’m going to a specific protest [about something tangentially related to the course dontent] and you should go too”

How about “Here is an update from a State partner on threats from the current administration to our current food policy, who will be impacted, and what you can do if you want to do something?" I noted from the beginning mine situation was different, but still political.

The coercion issue is definitely *less* significant but prof/instructors are still in a position of authority over students so I don’t think it’s quite right

There's a power diff but if it doesn't affect a grade or scholarship I don't think it is coercive for adults to see other adults making choices. What's coercive is suppressing student protests with police violence, suspensions, loss of funding. and termination of employment for supportive profs.

Well yes obviously that is much worse.

I don't see why. Palestinians/jews, Ukrainian/Russian, Christian/Muslim, on and on. There will always be land and culture disputes, i.e., there will always be politics. That is good and as it should be. Teachers' task is to encourage students to think for themselves.

no, I’m saying specifically encouraging them to participate in pro-Palestine marches rather than pro-Israel marches (or vice-versa), not a general encouragement to participate in public engagement

In 35 years I have been invited to childrens' soccer games, music recitals, birthday parties, afternoon fishing expeditions, track meets, etc., etc. I have never once myself or seen another teacher invite a student to a political demonstration of any kind.

I don’t think it’s a phenomenon at all in K-12; I think it does occasionally happen in the higher education world.

It isn't a "phenomenon" at any level, Ivan. If a high school or college teacher attends the same demonstration as his or her students, it's by choice, not by invitation.

…once again, the specific thing discussed in this article was an instructor saying they were going to participate in a pro-Palestine demonstration and inviting the students to do the same.

windowsontheory.org/2023/10/27/h...

He notes his own forays into advocacy in the article; the issue would be using classroom time to discuss it. Just like it’s fine for me, a federal employee, to engage in advocacy on my own time but not not when on the clock for Uncle Sam.

He's claiming his time in the classroom is different in kind from his time as Harvard faculty and as a Computer Scientist? Like I said, disingenuous. Does he mention what happens when a student comes to class in a pro-Palestine t-shirt?

The ambit of a professor includes (or can be seen to include) some interest in campus life, which is related to but distinct from instructional time in the classroom.

He is arguing that, and I mostly agree. I don’t know the man and can’t speak for him, but based on the article I’d guess he’d have no problem with a kid in a pro-Palestine t-shirt. May I ask how you would respond to a kid in a pro-Israel t-shirt?

I've never felt the urge to assemble a collection of students' opinions I don't like. windowsontheory.org/wp-content/u...

That’s good, but you didn’t answer my question.

Not encouraging students; he doesnt broach that topic. What he does describe is denying students academic leniency, while they participate in something he admits is much more important, under the guise of "professionalism" of some sort. Such a bad argument it's not even worth entertaining.

So do you think students who participate in protests should get academic leniency?

I was able to read it, and yes, that was a pretty rough answer. Worst part of the whole thing probably.

UHHH YEAH LOL

Do you think that should apply to anyone who engages in campus activism for any cause? A pro-Israel persuasion campaign or counter-demonstration, for instance?

Why would I care about your hypothetical? We are talking about a real guy that really punished his students for really demonstrating against a real genocide. Fuck that. Obviously.

You don’t have to care about anything, but i want to understand your perspective. Is getting academic leniency for protesting, in general, something you support, or is it for protesting against Israel in particular?

Academic leniency is a courtesy professors are free to deny. And I'm free to think it's shitty lol. I'm not interested in making a blanket statement so you can move whatever goalposts you've set for this interaction

Hear me out - world is a hard place and we should provide leniency without demanding a full explanation of why. This culture of students or employees telling profs or bosses everything is unhealthy. "Hey Dr Lunsford I need a day" - "ok". One student burning me ok for the many ive helped.

Thank you for being understanding. I really appreciate your attitude towards this conversation, and you sound like a wonderful teacher

'wow so you think the only people with the balls and tenuous enough responsibilities to do anything be given an extention on their homework?' lmfao

'How will my students learn to conduct themselves in a professional environment if I don't punish them for participating in crucial civic action??'

How are they being punished?

By not being granted academic leniency, as per the topic of discussion. Any other questions?

Yes: is Not being granted special treatment you request a punishment?

When the professer then writes a self aggrandizing article about not giving you "special treatment" (oh no, determining need on a case-by-case basis!) because, despite the professor's admittance that what youre doing is *more important*, they wanted to pull a power play, yes absolutely

let's be real, he just means pro-palestine march he sees nothing wrong with developing weapons or surveillance tech used exclusively for killing minorities. I highly doubt that Palestinians are wealthy enough to buy that tech to use against Israel.

He specifically mentioned not thinking advocacy for Israel is appropriate in the classroom, and he also specifically mentions the ethical implications of CS he thinks should be discussed

Like disagree but disagree with what he actually says?

The students didn't ask to demonstrate in the classroom

That’s not what he was objecting to (in this op-ed)

So why did it get mentioned?

The default position is for them to support Israel, that's why they're protesting in the first place. How many US military contractors sell weaponry and tech to Palestine like they do with Israel? Practically none because it would be illegal for them to do so.

The author himself is a part of an anti-Israel task force in Harvard, whether you agree or disagree he's clearly taking a political side. These right-wingers always lie whenever they say that they don't want politics. In reality, they don't want people to oppose their politics.

They try to trick centrists into thinking that "loud/annoying/impolite" activism is the problem, not the right-wing belief of exterminating minorities. Killing families in tent camps and sending people to El Salvadorian camps is rude, not protesting a university to stop funding a foreign government

Maybe a march or two would help them pause before accepting a job building code for a gov surveillance apparatus.

I think that it's quite reasonable to talk about the implications of the role CS plays in surveillance (and, indeed, the author mentions exactly that thing), but that's not the same as a professor actively encouraging their students to go to a specific protest.