Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Which I assume he’ll promptly need to pawn since last I heard he was broke, right? Has he paid what’s owed to Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss yet?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Which I assume he’ll promptly need to pawn since last I heard he was broke, right? Has he paid what’s owed to Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss yet?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
My question without reading the article is if he thinks both their efforts to reduce obesity or help people get healthier are pointless does he propose an alternative or is he just saying we should resign ourselves to it being our society’s reality.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
True, but condemning them to a stateless, rightless, nomadic existence may allow them to keep breathing but that’s about it. Israel & U.S. may convince some countries to take them in but how they’re treated once there, including expulsion, is up to that country. So a bleak wash, rinse, repeat.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Let me guess: Russia denies the allegations. Putin would happily try to take out every leader who stands in his way. But since Trump swoons when he’s around him like a teenage girl in love and never follows through on his occasional threats, Putin knows he has nothing to worry about from the U.S.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Israel & U.S. should earn international pariah status for such a scheme (that is destined to fail) but that won’t change the dismal fate of those displaced. The west helped facilitate and then recognized an Israeli state last century. It should do it again for Palestinians in this one. End/
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Pay them to move where? How many takers are there for 2 million people and the growth in those numbers over time? Even if they bribe a country to let them in, it will be Israel part 2- few if any rights, tolerated at best, treated as vermin at worst until that country decides they have to go. 1/
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Actually sounds like the whole kerfuffle started because the Latvian’s feelings were hurt.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I don’t know when in the match this happened but she lost in straight sets. Don’t think it was match point. I also find it odd Townsend would be expected to apologize. It’s a part of the game that can impact anyone. If players think such points should be replayed, lobby to change the rules.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Sorry kids. No more hopscotch.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Don’t disagree. But do you think it’s wise for other contenders to let him remain the dominant face of Democratic opposition for another year? I realize they don’t start declaring & ramping up until after the midterms, but counting on an Obama-like rise or Newsom implosion would seem risky.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I’m confused. The photos in this post say “sidewalk” and “roadway” but in an article from an Orlando station (WKMG) about the issue it says the law only pertains to roadways. Was the sidewalk ban added on?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Newsom has put himself out there for a long time now since he rightfully sees high name ID as a necessity to compete (especially for donors). His name ID was already higher than most other Dems with POTUS ambitions. Couple that with his recent Trump trolling & it’s not a surprise he’s leading polls.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Collins seems to benefit from the “devil you know is better than the devil you don’t” syndrome. Maine is obviously not a deep blue state. She bucks her party just enough times for voters to say, see, she’s not a crazy ideologue & then forgive her for her votes that are not in their best interest.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I guess the committee doesn’t release the nominees for 50 years. We assume Trump is nominated because of all the groveling performances we’ve seen doing so. But directing masked agents into his country’s cities & the horrible treatment of human beings by his DHS alone should be disqualifying.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I assume what they are doing is going to the bathroom. And if my hunch is right many of us have already been in bathrooms or other places with a trans people and didn’t know it.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Ahh. A Benny Johnson fan. Hearing about the websites this MN kid frequented and the manifesto excerpts it sadly sounds like many of the others who’ve committed such acts…and statistically the overwhelming majority of them have not identified as trans (see most recently FSU shooter.) Over & out.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Of course, qualified psychiatrists or other sciency types could look at the shooter’s manifesto & come to other conclusions, but we all know how RFK,Jr feels about expertise. So whether he said this or not, when RFK, Jr. ultimately speaks on camera the words will no doubt be just as far-fetched.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
What happens if a person isn’t trans but supports trans people? Would that make them accessories to domestic terrorism if it came to that? If the FBI takes this action, then we should demand a class of domestic terrorism made up of young, white, socially isolated males. Is that one already taken?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Yes, doxxing is unfortunate. But can’t help but see the irony that he’s cites the disruption, fear & stress it causes families when I imagine that’s what many decent, hardworking members of our society feel after masked men take them away & destroy their families in the process. Sucks doesn’t it.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Geez, another black person. Latest example about how anti-DEI/woke was always about making racial discrimination legal again (alas for him doesn’t transition nicely to an acronym or fit well on a hat) and about targeting blacks in power to diminish them, humiliate them & if possible, indict them.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
One aspect of these man’s-inhumanity-to-man scenes is that they’re not only losing the person they love but losing what I assume is the family breadwinner. The $ challenges then just exacerbate the emotional ones. I’d say how do those agents sleep at night but that would imply they have consciences.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
The dumbing down of America continues. Guess from now on it’s only about solving those pesky mitochondrial challenges.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Don’t want a free trial of Wired but I take it the article doesn’t name the influencers since it’s dark money funded. If this is a relatively new thing it would seem a little easier to spot new voices/faces. It’s kind of how many Democrats feel already when they see a spokesperson for Third Way.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Not sure the # of signatures means anything. Signature gatherers use a script that goes “you’re not voting on anything you’re just allowing people to vote on it.” I wised up to that over the years. Lots of human rights can be revoked by initiative when people aren’t paying attention.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
But why do ballot envelopes need to be dated? (We don’t date ours.) A signature is supposed to match what’s on file for a person to ensure that voter is actually the one submitting the ballot. What’s the date for? If you date it perfectly and it arrives after E-Day at 8 pm, it’s not going to count.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Having a hard time finding stats showing this as a deep red district. One chart showed Republicans had about a 6 pt registration advantage over Democrats but then there is ~20% with no party preference. Maybe a lot of those lean right? About 38% of district is white but big Hispanic population too.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
At the risk of sounding naive I’m not sure what this was really all about. Cracker Barrel as a company has had a history of racism allegations and lawsuits. So if they made the guy leaning on the barrel black, I’d expect the “no DEI” cries. But proposing a simpler even boring logo was somehow a sin?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Great. Even fewer people to help before or after a disaster hits.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Sadly I agree. For the last several election cycles Democrats had moments where they got excited for Ohio. Tim Ryan can do it! Joe Biden is surging! Ted Strickland is the front-runner! And then they end up losing by 6-8 pts (if not more) come Election Day. Still hard to believe Obama won it in 2012.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Good. It’s one of those requirements that has nothing to do with election integrity. In PA, ballots must be received by 8 pm Election Day (there’s no “postmarked by” exception.) So that’s the only date that matters. I don’t believe either red Utah or blue Oregon require dates on the envelopes.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Pretty sure he just does these things to get people to re-post and talk about him.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
They didn’t “go into a war.” THEY WERE INVADED.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
“A lot of people.” This is the guy who complains about inaccurate, bogus statistics all the time but who thinks “many are saying” or “lots of people have told me” are indisputable statements of fact.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Fine. Don’t burn it.. walk around with it, wear it and/or hang it…but always upside down. You know. Like Mrs. Alito did.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Public order= no protesting
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
But when you’re a state like Oregon which has been a mail-only state for 25 years that would be a big undertaking to open & sufficiently staff enough sites so people weren’t waiting in lines for hours. CA same thing since around 80% now vote by mail. And it would all be for a non-existent problem.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
The expense and logistical challenge to find and set up enough places to serve as polling places as well as enough people to staff them would be a nightmare. The last time I voted in person it was in someone’s garage. There were about 3 people staffing it. Those would be some long lines….
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Don’t we already do that? Pretty sure we’ve both chronicled the evils of slavery, Jim Crow, etc and honored the perseverance & bravery of civil rights leaders and ordinary citizens to bring about change (aka progress). The issue is that WH seems to want to leave out the “evils of slavery” part.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Who knew that, according to Stephen Miller, DC has such a high percentage of old white hippies…..
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I enjoy the trolling but now the hard work begins. Not a slam dunk that a majority will support (until 2032) the proposed new maps since I read the independent commission is popular & I’m sure the GOP will remind voters of that. America has a lot riding on this; so does GN’s political future.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Good lord. I don’t think even a B movie would have written something like that in the script.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
If internals show it won’t pass GN will figure some way to back down. It will hurt him but not as much as spending $$$ & losing at the polls. If it proceeds & even non-conservative CA voters vote no, they must do so knowing it means there is then no way to even slow Trump’s agenda. So no complaints.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
If Politico is correct it means most people in CA are willing to live under a permanent ultra conservative GOP-majority house whose members will never have to respond to the needs/preferences of the majority of Americans, especially Californians. Red states will just continually redraw as needed.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
He was talking about rural & suburban areas turning redder & how people there don’t like cities or black people & blame crime on them (& how Trump is wise to capitalize on that.) If those voters just don’t like black people as he says, what does he want Democrats to do? Compete for the racist vote?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
So what exactly makes it a felony?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
They’re tasked with prosecuting misdemeanor cases? I look forward to them prosecuting members of Congress for jaywalking.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Sure by all means resign because a member of this administration accuses you of something. And by the looks of it, mortgage fraud is the go-to for all accusations against those Trump dislikes.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
And while they’re at it they’ll see if they also had something to do with the poor monthly jobs report numbers.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
They’ll say that marriages from other states will still be recognized because of RFMA; you just can’t get married in that state. That’s not a consolation, but I also have my doubts SC won’t ultimately say RFMA violates religious freedom by forcing those states’ officials to recognize gay marriages.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I remember the hair on fire screeching when Democrats were accused of picking winners & losers & propping up clean energy companies. I know the “imagine if” game is overplayed but it’s getting more ludicrous every day seeing the things the WH does that merit a mere transient “concerned” op-ed.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
But then that keeps taking us back to why they wouldn’t release documents related to the case.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Wasn’t comparing Malcolm X and MLK. I know MLK believed in strategy/tactics that weren’t shared by others in the movement. I’m talking about how the FBI and many Americans viewed him at the time. He was called a radical & a communist, neither of which were associated with being a moderate.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
That’s what I figured. When I heard 380 had been arrested in DC I said “arrested for what?” If it wasn’t for murder/assault, robbery/carjacking or maybe illegal possession of guns (which is ironic from the side that pushes for everyone to carry a gun) then I doubt anyone in DC really feels safer.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
My source for news and opinion is more logical but then that would be MS NO.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
So anyone without a car can’t vote.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Don’t deny the spending against him will rise but he’s been pretty impressive handling the incoming. Guess we’ll see. Still think he comes out on top.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
If everyone truly liked a candidate & the media/DNC got them to dump that person, then I question how solid their support ever was. Mamdani is a good test case even if on a smaller scale. At least so far, efforts to diminish his appeal haven’t worked with 2.5 months to go.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Ok, but based on polling about access to abortion and birth control as well as gay marriage, it wouldn’t seem that the majority of Americans are all that socially conservative. I think most people also still favor a separation of church & state. So are you only looking at other social issues?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I think moderate means safe, or perhaps only very incremental changes to the status quo. MLK Jr. was considered a communist at the time because what he & others were fighting for were not moderate changes to the status quo. Yet now many look back with reverence at what they fought for & achieved.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
So what has to be sacrificed in order to prioritize the moderate position? There were policies in our past that were considered moderate (because moderate = what majority wants) that didn’t exactly serve certain segments of our country very well. Those who pushed “left” at least helped change that.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
He does realize that it will soon be apparent there were none.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
But that is what happened with Clinton and Whitewater, right?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
That said, since the charge is “threatening” to assault, kidnap or kill a federal official my guess is he’ll be convicted (even though I thought that was for specifically named officials.) Would seem threats to federal judges deserve similar charges. What’s the status of those charges DOJ? End/
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
There had to be lots of threats to “use my 2nd amendment rights” when Obama was POTUS. But unless there was detailed evidence of when & how they’d carry it out, didn’t think charges were filed. I also recall hearing that usually those who do carry out violence don’t broadly publicize it first. 1/
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Yep. Trump is sadly likely to get his wish: Allowing his forces to shoot protesters.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I’ll await the definition of “styled” in “NATO-styled” before I think he’s all in on joining Ukrainian efforts to fight back.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Yeah because treating a delivery guy like this who’s trying to make a few bucks to feed his family makes America a better place. Gotta hope Americans are more unnerved by the actions of state-sanctioned masked thugs than they are by the immigration status of (per his boss) a hard-working decent guy.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I’m now going with the pithier “masked thugs.”
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Masked thugs. As I recall, conservatives usually limited their use of thugs to describe black male criminals (but never white ones of course.) But the dictionary defines “thuggish” as acting in a violent way or looking violent. As in this case, some of these agents may even relish the title.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
The ability to wear a uniform & be sanctioned by POTUS unfortunately gives guys like this legal cover to do anything they want to those they’ve always hated or disagreed with (including those who film them doing it). They know Trump will have their backs no matter how far over the line they go.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Unlikely. Imagine stories of him being nominated for a peace prize juxtaposed with images of starvation, death and destruction in both Gaza and Ukraine and excitedly talking about kicking Palestinians out of Gaza and suggesting places like South Sudan their “new home.”
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Maybe he said it; maybe he didn’t. But it wouldn’t be surprising. Like everyone, Putin knows how to play to Trump’s ego and tell him what he wants to hear. (In Russia, I’m sure the election is considered rigged if you don’t jail or kill any credible opposition prior to Election Day.)
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
What I don’t get about the “take him out” strategy is we saw close to 50% of Americans re-elect Trump & said like it or not, that’s how it works in democracies. Why then would we not view a Mamdani win the same way? Who knows if he’ll be a success but looks like voters want to give him that chance.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Yep. It’s why on election night I was unhappy Trump won but more disheartened that so many Americans supported such a horrible person as well as supported his likely administration’s intention (which was evident during the campaign) to chip away at the American experiment until it was no more.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Yeah, saw that too. Wonder how she feels now. She was sure Trump was “on to” Putin’s games & since he’s a deal-making businessman he knows how to handle this. Appears the bully got out-bullied. And Putin is deserving of bullying unlike the immigrants whose lives Trump & Co. take joy in destroying.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
So they don’t really care about serious crimes like carjackings and muggings as much as apprehending someone whose only crime may amount to a misdemeanor?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
As if he’d ever say anything but that. He’s a walking superlative. If he literally fell on his face he’d refer to it as a spectacular fall.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
First Jon Stewart now George Clooney. Looks like the “allure” of celebrity Trump has gotten to the pundits. Do we have liberal celebrities who are also unethical convicted felons hell bent on making America into a white-ruled theocracy? Apparently that’s the “no-lose” candidate they seek.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Too bad alternating protestors can’t stand in front of the museum with signs like “for non-WH approved versions of history visit….(fill in the blank. A book, a website, a documentary, etc)
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
We’ll remember that as we go forward Jeanine when one of your minions throws something at someone your cult leader doesn’t like just to ensure the ”sandwich law” is equally enforced.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Oh, so it’s a version of stop and frisk. Are they all black or non-white people being pulled over?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Or maybe I should have said 54% seems low to me. I was more focused on the apparent 46% who I guess report they abstain from drinking any alcohol.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Can’t read the article, but does this correlate with alcohol sales? Seems high to me. I don’t doubt that people have cut back for health/weight reasons. But anecdotally I know of many more people who at least occasionally drink alcohol and virtually no one who still smokes. Might be generational.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Shouting at then throwing a submarine sandwich at one of the CBP officers and running off.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Please. He will stop the war because Trump will give him everything he wants and then some. More meaningless bluster from him to try to appear tough when we all know he’ll acquiesce to all Putin’s demands and sell out Ukrainian sovereignty.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
And just like that….flipping by Fox News in the channel guide and what do I see? People looting/shoplifting from a department store. Like I said, one video clip or sound bite can carry a lot of weight regardless of what commentary about the actual scope of the problem may follow.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Never has “get a life” been more appropriate than for that server. Good lord. The fact that she obsesses on policing bathrooms in a busy restaurant says she’s got way too much time on her hands…as well as suffering from extreme prejudice.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Yes, especially since it’s unlikely there is sufficient shelter space for all the homeless even if they are willing to go to a shelter.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Problem is crime is personal. You don’t care if overall crime is down if you’re the victim or you know a victim. Some are probably fine with a militarized street if they felt it would stop all crime…except white collar crime which as ruinous as it can be to someone doesn’t elicit the same passion.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Today I’ve seen articles or quickly-flashed TV charts about lower crime rates across America, core inflation going up and this one about increasing layoffs. How do we make that get top billing & stick? Until we do, Trump will continue to BS and “look over here” his way to a 40-45% approval. End/
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
The problem is Democrats’ arguments don’t lend themselves to videos and sound bites. Stats & countering lies in little read articles don’t resonate the same way. Crime can be going down but one stunning scene of a car jacking in LA is what sticks. 1/
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Roberts seems resigned to the prospect of being powerless & useless, like the Supreme Court in Russia. He either gives in to Trump’s demands (pretzel twisting to make it constitutional) or he doesn’t but then watches Trump defy decisions he doesn’t like. So no real need then for the SC to exist.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
He says GOP takes advantage of tangible, observable, universally accepted problems. But if they’re “universally accepted” problems and stats & ideas countering GOP narrative about them don’t work, sounds like he wants D’s to just get better & quicker at lying, demonizing & scapegoating like the GOP.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
But isn’t there a limit to lying about the economy? There will still be news on unemployment claims, business closures, stats on bankruptcies, uninsured & layoffs. And ADP at least reports private industry payrolls. At some point things aren’t going to make sense if the lies are too ridiculous.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
So he’s pro-authoritarian regime
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Does he think people feel sorry for rich people?
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Well then you should be anxious to release all those documents it would seem.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
I’d say it’s not fine with nearly all women. But if these evangelical women chose to relinquish power to their husbands & not cast a vote, that’s a choice they make. If they did vote it would be to undo the progress of the 20th century. The fewer votes out there contributing to that, the better.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
Fortunately uphill climb for that (for now) but hey-if all the Christian conservative women who share this belief want to sacrifice their vote and have only 1 instead of 2 votes being cast in support of 19th century ideas, fine with me.
Kkeepgoing (@kkeepgoing.bsky.social) reply parent
With the arrest & removal threats, I agree. But I do believe he’ll just keep calling special sessions every 30 days until Trump gets what he wants. This is why Democrats unfortunately can’t wait until Texas does it. TX is going to do it (not sure about deadlines but Abbott will just move those too.)