It's the only party that can theoretically stop Reform if it gets its shit in order. There is quite literally nothing else aside from hoping the Tories pull back from the brink.

This unfortunately won‘t happen with Starmer as leader. He has planted himself firmly on the side of „concerned citizens“ that are harassing refugees across the country.

Yes we'll he can be replaced faster than another party can be built. There's one show on the road here.

When have Labour party members *ever* removed a leader?

Members can't remove a leader, only MPs can.

And let's face it, why would the little people be entitled to have a view?

I don't think giving the labour party membership defact veto power over the prime minister of the united kingdom is a good idea, Norbert.

(a) It isn't a veto. It'd take a lot to make it happen. (b) There have been any number of Labour leaders who never made it to No 10. But more fundamentally, isn't it always amazing that what works really quite well in other countries in Europe should absolutely be out of the question here?

It is a veto. You want the membership of the labour party to be able tbring down the prime minister if they want. No. That isn't parliamentary democracy. It isn't democracy at all. I get b) but that isn't what we are talking about here, you don't want it just for opposition times.

Of course in the UK the leader of the party *must* be the Prime Minister so it must always be this way and cannot conceivably be any other way even though in other places it often is but let's not go there. He's elected to represent the views of those who *are* the party. If he stops doing that...

That‘s something I agree with. The question now is whether MPs remain cowards in the face of the fascist right or whether they remember that their first duty is to the country and not to Starmer.

The PM has patronage. You want a government role, no matter how insignificant? Keep your mouth shut. They will not.

Patronage powers don't help when you don't have enough jobs to give out and your MPs don't think they have a chance of getting reelected.

When Hitler passed the enablement act socialist MPs voted no, despite being threatened, despite knowing it would pass anyway. Many of them went into the first concentration camps. Being elected comes with great privileges but also with the duty to make the ultimate sacrifice when needed.

There is no chance to replace Starmer anytime soon. He has a right grip on the party machine.

He can be replaced whenever MPs become unconvinced he's going to be able help them keep their seat. I imagine the 2026 local elections give a decent time for this. What exactly is your alternative timo? Pretend Jeremy Corbyn can spin a party of malcontents up? Pretend the greens can win?

Bring in PR to ensure there can not be a Fascist take over of the UK. Labour members voted for it.

The plp failed to remove corbyn cos, y'know, lp rules mean it's virtually impossible to remove a leader no matter how shit he is. Hence 2019.

We’re in this mess because of this kind of thinking. Labour clearly are not doing enough to win the next election or beat away Reform. They’re paving the way. The alternative starts when you stop giving unconditional support to people who are acting like fascists. It’s as simple as that.

I think if you think that labour are acting like fascists you need to get a reality check.

The war against basic rights for trans people is not that of a party that values human rights for all parts of society.

The position is bad on trans rights. It's not fascism.

The denial of basic rights for vulnerable groups is one of the big red flags on the way to fascism.

Recent decisions with regards to Gaza protests by Labour are not that of a party that has freedom of speech at its core.

Ok but that isn't fascism, Timo.

Fascism is not a binary state but a slippery slope. Every such decision leads us further down this slope at which end Farage is waiting.

why do you think it is that you believe Starmer is firmly on the side of those harassing refugees across the country, and yet those very same people believe Starmer has established a two-tier justice system that singles them out for draconian persecution, where they are 'political prisoners'?

That's not hard. Because Starmer isn't coming out to forcefully oppose these things, and because the right have lost their ever loving minds.

so if Starmer isn't coming out to forcefully oppose these things, why do the people doing those things despise Starmer and believe he is abusing his power to create a two-tier justice system that persecutes and silences them as political prisoners?

Because the right works on the principle of the friend enemy distinction. They select and enemy and organise against it. What you are essentially asking is 'why are Starmers far right political opponents dishonest and cynical' and I mean, I don't know what to tell you bud?

so who is Starmer on the side of, and trying to appease?

He's trying to mitigate the loss of voters to reform. He's trying to keep the people that voted for him last year that are now intending to vote for reform. That's who he is trying to appease. Any more questions ?

There are few Labour voters from last year who may now vote Reform. The bleed out to Lib Dems and Green is a much bigger danger.

Yes, but again. They think they can lose them 2:1 because we stack up voted in cities and a lot of those votes that are being drained are being drained in cities. Ultimately they think enough of those will back labour inf a Farage Vs Starmer election.

and are these the same people demonstrating outside hotels?

I'm sure theres some overlap but not a lot as the number of people that actually demonstrated is so low.

Starmer is afraid of bleeding votes to Reform. He thinks when pushed liberals will vote for Labour no matter what. So it is the Reform vote he has to go after. But all he does is making Farage more electable by pivoting to the same slogans and the liberals will go to Lib Dem or Greens.

He's making the bet that because libs are packed into cities he can lose 2 to the left for every 1 to the right. Libs suffer from being inefficient. The progressive eighth of the country is even more packed into fewer constituencies

But what he needs is the swing suburbs. Labour only won here because of Lib Dem voters lending their votes to Labour where efficient to do so. No chance that he gets this coalition back.

Yes I think they have it wrong, but that is apparently part of the theory of how to beat farage.

Or simply Westminster bubble. It reminds me of May trying to find a Brexit deal that her own far right MPs would like. It was clear that this was impossible. Yet, she kept on trying until they ousted her. I think the Westminster bubble is real and lets people lose grip of reality.

ok, and what about my question?

You clearly don't need lots of mps to set the national agenda, or influence public opinion and government policy. As evidenced by reform who only have 4! We're 4 years from an election, even if you think Labour winning that is the least bad option, it doesn't follow you have to support them now.