You're missing the point. This issue may come up in other situations but the post was *specifically* about communication difficulties between neurodivergent and neurotypical folks and how ND always have the burden of accommodation placed on them instead of neurotypicals just saying what they mean.
to be bald-faced brutal honesty that doesn't take the other person's possible reactions into account. Tact is going to be used to make sure the other person isn't upset. Neurodivergent people are literally the majority of people who can handle unvarnished truth when it might be negative.
This is because most neurotypical people are, unless they're awful people, taught from childhood how to communicate and often don't think about "saying what they mean" the way you mean it. Everything is surface level unless you know someone personally for a long time and, even then, it's not going
If I'm understanding you correctly, right, that's the whole problem. NT aren't just taught that when ND aren't, its a major difference in the way our brains work. Yes, sadly they don't see expecting ND to be mind readers as an issue, or assuming everyone wants placating validation like they do.
like communicating that way without having to think before you speak. That doesn't work in a modern society.
because they find it difficult or they don't like it. That's not how being an adult works. If you refuse to adapt, or even try, that's no longer on neurotypical people. That's you wanting, and this is the honesty level you al appear to want, to be given a license to be mean or a jerk because you
So please stop acting like ND are being assholes when they're going out of their way to figure out how to get better clarification and make NT feel better bc NT are refusing to do it themselves in these situations. Again, PLEASE read OPs post and the comments as many times as is helpful.
or how I say it.
You're not "being assholes" unless you refuse to try to learn what to say and how to say it. You are trying to force society, and yes it is society, to be what you want it to be and that's just not how it works. No matter how many times you tell me to read things again, it's not going to change
Assuming ND are 'mean' or 'jerks' bc they thought someone wanted GENUINE FEEDBACK or failed to ASSUME that person just wanted a pat on the back or is bringing up a pervasive issue for ND is really ableist. ND have discussed repeatedly how to tackle this issue and better accommodate NT.
Your idea of "genuine feedback" is not how neurotypical people generally think of that phrase. That's a problem in itself. You, no matter if you don't like it, be specific, as I have said, to get the response you want, and hope that the person in question can give it to you.
You say these things as if two NT folks in the situation mentioned can easily assume what the other person wants or expects, and then deliver the unspoken expectations.
Again, that was the WHOLE POINT. Why are ND ALWAYS expected to adapt to make NTs comfortable, but NT are not when they refuse to just say what they want directly? There's a lot of ableism and infantilization in these assumptions and its incredibly problematic.
you want it unless you say, as I have said twice now, something like, "What's wrong with it? You don't have to be nice." and even then, you're not 100 percent of the time going to get that Vulcan-like response from people who can't bring themselves to communicate that way.
You have to, whether you like it or not, and that's the absolute truth in this case, accept and go along with the fact that the majority gets to make the societal rules, period! It's not "comfort" to a neurotypical person. It's how things are in society. You're not going to get a response like
behavior. Now, what occurred to me is that, yes, neurotypical people should care about how neurodivergent people see and understand things, but from some neurodivergent people, I get the feeling that they think they shouldn't have to even try to follow the general society's rules for tact just
problem. As I told someone else, you have to be specific with neurotypical people and say something like, "What do you think about this? You don't have to be nice about it." That'll get you what you want unless the person in question is emotionally incapable of being that direct due to learned
Why are ND expected to be 'specific' when they already are or communicate better, but NT are not, when they're repeatedly not and refuse to speak directly? This is called ableism. As is assuming ND are being 'rude or mean' by offering genuine feedback. Again, please reread OPs post and the comments.
reasonable to expect that you should be able to learn how to do and do it. I read them all. You simply don't agree with what I'm saying. You want people to speak to you as you require to the exclusion of all else or you call it wrong. That's not how it work being an adult in the modern world.
It's just true. They're not going to "speak directly" because it's not a thing in the world in general society for neurotypical people the way you want it. I don't agree with your definition of ableism and I'm physically disabled, BTW. Learning how to say something and what to say is not beyond
It's just a fact that neurotypical people are the majority and don't think or speak literally like you would want. That means it's up to you to be specific when you want feedback that neurotypical people might often find objectionable and just wrong to give in a certain way. It's not fair.
OH MY WORD. THAT'S 100% ABLEIST. AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Physically disabled can be ableist against ND, and vice versa. Or internally ableist. I won't be responding anymore but feel free to keep arguing. For the last time, please reread the post and comments as many times as you need. Be well.✌
Sorry, I don't agree with your definition of "ableist". You keep thinking "rereading" will change something. That's a problem in itself.
If ND folks are better at communicating this situation would occur less frequently w ND pple. I’m not calling anyone rude, and I’m not being ableist. You’re not understanding, and you’re making sweeping generalizations about both NT & ND folks. I’m not being ableist, and you are wrong. ✌🏼
It's NOT about ignoring rules for tact or thinking we don't have to accommodate society rules when that's ALL we've done our whole lives to make NT comfortable. That was the whole point of the post. And no one is using that as an excuse to be rude. NO IDEA where you're getting that from.
Oh, there are people who want to be able to say whatever they like without having to care about how it sounds or is received.
I'm done responding and repeatedly explaining the original topic when it feels like people are intentionally changing the subject and refusing to consider ND concerns. There's not much else we can do when we go out of our way to change but people make rude assumptions and refuse to meet us halfway.✌
The "original topic" isn't the only thing talked about in this thread. Threads diverge. They don't always stay like a straight line.
THAT'S NOT WHAT THE POST WAS ABOUT THOUGH, WAS IT???🤦♀️
The original post? No, but it was in response to ANOTHER post about something else I said.
I think you need to reread OPs post and the comments. That's not at all what anyone is saying. The issue is even when we DO communicate directly, we're still ignored. The issue is we're expected to understand hidden meanings or unspoken rules or assumptions when people could just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN.
You have to personally and literally ask for it in terms like, "What's wrong with this? You don't have to be nice about it."
That's already been discussed. REPEATEDLY. PLEASE RERESD THE POST AND COMMENTS.
That's what I meant when I said you should be able to learn how not to say things and if you refuse, that's no longer on the neurodivergent people. People aren't going to "say what they mean" the exact way you like or want it in many countries because it's not a socially appropriate thing to do.
Oh my word. PLEASE REREAD THE POST AND COMMENTS AS MANY TIMES AS YOU NEED. THAT'S THE WHOLE ISSUE WE'RE DISCUSSING.
I have read them. It's not going to change anything I have said.
Something just occurred to me a few minutes ago as I was thinking about this problem. First, they're not asking you to literally read their minds, but, over time, you should be able to remember and learn specific things not to say in a certain way. If you refuse, that's no longer anyone else's
That is a bizarre broad generalization about NT people. I don’t know why you think the majority of NT people dismiss requested, detailed feedback. Ask for specifics. This isn’t a NT/ND issue.
Issues with communication and not understanding NT unspoken expectations or unspoken society rules are huge hallmarks of ND, specifically Autism, so I hope you can learn to listen to ND people as well as their valid experiences and concerns without dismissing the issue entirely. Be well.✌
The thing you're not getting is that, as the neurodivergent person in the minority in a society, whether you like it or not, it's on you to learn this stuff if possible.
It's literally discussed repeatedly in the post and comments, even when we ask specifically for detailed feedback, we're refused. We ARE ASKING for specifics, BUT NT are NOT, but we always have to accommodate??? You can say it as many times as you want but the comments prove otherwise. It's ableist.
Ok, have it your way. You're not going to take on any other view than the one you already have even if it's the majority. Goodbye.
🙄🙄🙄
Please reread the post and all the comments as many times as you need. Again, this is sounding a lot like internalized ableism. I hope you're willing to ask yourself why it's okay to dismiss and ignore the experience of a majority of ND people, as well as core aspects of Autism and neurodivergence.
The burden of what? In what way(s) are ND folks forced to accommodate others in situations like these? Ideally, how would u like NT pple to help balance this “burden”?
I would read all the comments by other neurodivergent folks here instead of just dismissing this issue. Feels like internalized ableism. AGAIN, yes, it applies to other situations, but that WASN'T THE POINT HERE. IT'S ABOUT COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ND AND NT. NT could actually just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN.
I literally just explained all of that. ND are expected to watch their tone, words, change how they behave, interpret unspoken rules, be mind readers, etc etc etc. Like I said, it occurs in other cases, but it is a PERVASIVE problem for ND folks when NT could just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN.🤦♀️