Now, as someone who did love Hamilton, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and I understand what it's going for. I just also think some of the criticism is a little warranted, and we do have to contend with its material impact; it did give, for a whole new generation, a new afterlife for...

... the Founding Fathers, to the point where everything LMM chose to either omit or sanitize allowed them to divorce these figures from the unbelievably fucked up things they would do *to* Americans in the long run (and indigenous people, especially).

Honestly my most spicy opinion is that the mockery of American civic religion, not excess reverence of it, is a huge part of why we're here. It is probably worth reckoning with the fact that Americans of every ethnicity & generation have found inspiration in these figures, despite their moral flaws

I think mockery and reverence are both at fault here. There's no better example of this than Trump, who by his actions makes a mockery of it, but by his words pretends reverence. He wants to shut down critical museum displays and trample the Constitution at the same time.

What we need is sober warts-and-all appraisal, but that takes work, so we don't get it.

Ehh, I think that's a contextual need. And again, I think a better example of what Philby is talking about is Kingdom of Heaven?

That may be; I haven't seen it! I guess I should. (And for the record, I have seen Hamilton: first the original-cast movie they put on Disney+, and later a live show with a touring cast.)

Absolutely see it! But watch the Director's Cut, which is a classic

Is the Director's Cut on Disney+ or...?

Oh hey, which touring cast?

August 2023, which I think means it has to be the Philip Tour. (I can't find any definitive cast names.)

Which, honestly, yeah- Saladin getting a sexy gothic glow up, to the point of inspiring a whole archetype of the Masked Royal in fantasy and horror (see: Darkest Dungeon), is absolutely a prime example of giving someone an afterlife they arguably don't deserve.

You mean Baldwin? Baldwin was famous long before the film (we actually have no evidence he wore a mask!)

(by all accounts Baldwin was a decent enough king as the crusader royals went, afaik.) Saladin has the other problem - he conquered Jerusalem & as was typical for the area enslaved many of the conquered, but ransomed an unusual number & then freed others, which FOR THE TIME was most magnanimous.

But obviously this doesn't translate, nor does the relatively great honor & courage that Balian of Ibelin showed in the siege (or the patriarch of Jerusalem who the film turns into a symbol of wicked religion) so the film needs to translate them into modern standards.

... Oh, God, I'm so embarrassed. I don't know why my brain conflated the two.

I need to go commit seppeku.

should have played Age of Empires II more www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkvd...

and Saladin himself I knew first from Age of Empires 2 actually

(a thing a lot of folks On Here don't want to think about is how much even oppressed marginalized groups such as indigenous Americans and Black Americans are *still* historically extremely well represented among American heroes & clearly inspired by that civic religion & its pantheon.)

Ehhhh...

Seriously. Black Americans didn't take names like Washington upon being emancipated for no reason.

Not denying that many Americans found them inspirational, I just don't buy that the mockery of the foundational myth of America is why we're.