5. Other schools may have even higher overhead rates. Harvard's is around 69%. This new order slashes that percentage to a maximum of 15%. This means cutting one of the most important sources of university funding nationwide by 75% or more. Universities cannot function with this scale of cut.
Isn’t that the idea? #SevenMountains plus others who resent
The overhead rates as an outsider can look astounding. However, because of the way the govt would like to see transparency, the body of work won’t include equipment audit, lab space rental, equipment purchases, acct and legal staff. Etc, all are line items included in overhead.
Why does Harvard get to charge 69%, when the average (prior to this announcement) is 27%? It seems fairer that all institutions should get to charge the same overhead rate.
All for tax cuts for the wealthy. Despicable…
No. That’s not it. It’s because their base of mean spirited, angry, frightened want universities gutted.
And they want tax cuts. When they vote to extend, they’ll say, we have already saved billion by shrinking government, and eliminating wasteful programs.
These are separate things.
But the former is laying ground for the latter.
Again. You should probably consider these independent. Lower/low/no taxes is a stated goal. Diminished/destroyed administrative state/regulatory bodies are another stated goal. You don’t need one for the other.
Truly astonishing. The incubators (benchtop, cabinet, or walk-in), low-temp freezers, sterile environments, sterilizing equipment, specialized imaging systems, myriad centrifuges, etc cost incomparably more to maintain than office machinery (which labs also have) lost jobs & lost lives Staggering
Exactly. Many independent 501(c)3 research institutes also have much higher overhead rates to pay for their specialized facilities - and many treat patients as well as conduct research. Cutting it to 15% across the board will DESTROY many research centers. Pathetic. Oh - and illegal.
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6. The policy does not just affect funding going forward. All existing NIH grants will have their indirect rates cut to 15% as of today, the date of issuance. For a large university, this creates a sudden and catastrophic shortfall of hundreds of millions of dollars against already budgeted funds.
📌 NIH grants
Yeah, they’re gonna sue because there are signed contracts.
JFC
I am told by a Stanford researcher that this will cut Stanford’s operating budget for research by 30% or $200MM. Even a well-endowed university cannot sustain its program with that level of cuts.
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There must be thousands of us who are participating in university studies. We’ve put in countless hours, hoping to benefit ourselves & others. What happens to us & the data we’ve helped to generate so far? This is devastating.
7. This order did not come out of nowhere. It was a core component of Lindsey Burke's Dept. of Education chapter in the Project 2025 report. (Private foundations typically pay 10-15% overhead rates, and the logic of this comparison is made explicit in today's Supplemental Guidance from NIH.)
Dang! I should have known, my fault. I did not have "slashing indirect costs" on my dystopian bingo card.
ALEC 2.0
“Taxpayer subsidization of leftist agendas” Who knew that diabetes and cancer were part of the “leftist agendas”? 🤦♂️
Well, it does seem that us leftists are the only ones concerned about health care …..
Curing leukemia, leftist agenda!
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See Division D, Title II Section 224, the Further Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2024 (Public Law No: 118-47) grants.nih.gov/grants/guide...
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8. It is difficult to overstate what a catastrophe this will be for the US research and education systems, particular in biomedical fields. It is deliberate and wanton devastation entirely out of scale with any concern about DEI activities on campuses. The goal is destroy US universities.
It is bizarre to want to destroy something that was the envy of much of the world, but this is where we are.
Educated people don’t make very good idiots.
Yeah, I don't get it. Is this just resentment that someone, somewhere might know more than them? A belief we must remain as mindlessly ignorant as possible in order to see heaven? Basic shortsightedness?
There's absolutely no scientific proof of an afterlife or Heaven.
"Common sense" trumps any kind of book learnin'!
The college educated are the new enemy. They want less diplomas going out. Also, the cruelty is the point
Yes, I say it's bizarre, but I do "get" why they want it. I just think we will all (and maybe they will too) live to regret it.
Oh, for sure, some would regret it. Others are so twisted up in knots, I don't know if they'd understand what they'd done.
Bizarre indeed.
My thought as well. It is utterly baffling.
It all makes sense when you consider the possibility that the Trump administration actually wants to help our geopolitical opponents.
Just when you think they've reached peak stupidity, they climb a little higher.
They consider them "hotbeds of liberalism."
I either picked the best time, or the worst time, to take my leave of absence. I feel like whenever I get back to work, it will be a very different climate.
The goal is to destroy the U.S.
Ghouls every one of them.
Yes, it is. That's on the Project 2025 fascist list.
As one example, Harvard Medical School's negotiated indirect rate is 69.5%. It is very expensive to conduct world-leading research. 15% is a cruel and pathetic joke. osp.finance.harvard.edu/sites/hwpi.h...
Hopkins is a touch higher. People there are freaking out.
They want a serfdom Carl.
An uneducated public is easier to control.
Bingo!
But why do they want to destroy universities? Is it simply to keep people ignorant and controllable?
In the Project 2025 quote they say explicitly that they believe that universities are platforming Leftist Agendas and this is a way of depriving them of money.
And when the colleges fold, so will a lot of towns. The ripple effect is going to be awful
They do not care. Just like Trump z “shooting someone on 5th Ave.” these MAGA supporters knowing his policies will make their lives worse, still support him and his horrible policies.
I suspect most of them think they'll be immune. Of course, some won't see the connection when they get hit just like the rest of us.
I wonder if any of them will wake up. We need a team of psychologists to help reprogram these folks. They are like little Putin bots who parrot the same lines they don’t understand over and over
I think it's true that his base is very durable when it comes to reality, but we don't really need *that many* people to realize they've been snookered.
I fear it is already too late for them to realize the call is coming from inside the house
Oh it's going to be a disaster.
Just like all the health work and the defense work, there are states that rely on those research labs as the basis for their budget. If NM loses academically and then the labs, too, I can't imagine what we will do.
It’s upsetting as I will have a college freshman next year and his education will suffer without research opportunities. I’m 😞
Here's hoping the people who are harmed can make djt change his ways. I know (hope) he can't run again, so votes don't matter to him, but something must.
The dominionists plan to destroy any system of understanding the world that isn't rooted in their narrow interpretation of the Bible. They want the 3 Rs: Revisionist history, Reproductive ignorance and Republican supremacy taught by private schools. After that you have to ask a priest what to think.
They know that indoctrination of children is the only way to get that. There are too many aware of how narrow-minded and dangerous this is, but how do we stop people who don’t care about laws?
Robert Reich says there are 4 American stories - the triumphant individual, the benevolent community, the rot at the top & the mob at the gates. IMO if the rot at the top is fusing with the triumphant individual, the benevolent community must also become the mob at the gates.
Could universities be allowed in the future to charge such things as cleaning labs, air conditioning, and administrative support as direct costs?
And here my daughter is working on her Masters for bioinformatics. She already had to deal with the covid shutdown and now this. It’s not fair. Hate is not a strong enough word.
The Orbanization of American academe
More inside baseball about how overhead rates are determined from former NIGMS head Jeremy Berg. 🧵 bsky.app/profile/jere...
So is it possible for universities to calculates these overhead costs as direct costs? That is, account for the fraction of the electric bill, the water bill, the janitorial service, the depreciation on the building, etc. and get paid that way? Huge PITA, but can that be done?
Apropos: bsky.app/profile/gary...
Context from STAT. www.statnews.com/2025/02/07/n...
Authoritarian states need to have uneducated populace that just follows orders. Universities are institutions that teach people to question everything.
This is part of why they always fail. And why China is winning.
They won't be able to "import talent" like they used to. And who the fuck would come here? Authoritarian state, no social services, a lot of those people would be "escaping" to come to a far worse place.
Yah, well the corrupt power clan doesn't give a hoot about facts, and science represents an ongoing investigation into the facts that underlie everything. It's part of the 'dumbing down' strategy that has been in play for quite awhile and is seen also in their attacks on education.
"I love the uneducated"
Devastating
Yo! @meidastouch.com @bmeiselas.bsky.social read this thread. It's 355 of Project 2025. Maybe we just start calling it out and sighting the pages of their Mandate that trump said he knew nothing about
Uuuugh page 355 it's all there... static.project2025.org/2025_Mandate...
Found it on page 355 of the Heritage Foundations Project 2025 Project 2025 page 355 quoted "To correct course, l Congress should cap the indirect cost rate paid to universities so that it does not exceed the lowest rate a university accepts from a private organization to fund research efforts."
Bro that's like literally post 7 of the thread you are replying to.
I have no background whatsoever in law so I could easily be mistaken, but I do suspect that this cut is illegal overreach and that it would take an act of congress to cap overhead rates, based on this April 2024 legislative mandate: grants.nih.gov/grants/guide... h/t @archstreet.bsky.social
So this is just the Billionaire Tax Cut offset they need to pass their new budget through Congress using reconciliation?
It also may be a final agency action challengable under APA since they did not seek input from those affected.
This is horrific and I cannot imagine a better gift to China or a more deadly move for future generations to come. It seems universities could file suit?
We live in a country where laws only apply to the Left and to poor people.
More from Jeremy Berg on the new directive. Spoiler: almost certainly not written by anyone at NIH.
It also could be viewed as "breach of contract" on existing grants that included indirect costs in the grant approval.
This is our read as well.
bsky.app/profile/arch...
But, like…won’t Congress just approve it?
This Congress, with a razor thin majority in the House? No. Don’t forget, these funds go to plenty of universities in red states.
Theoretically.. but then people have to debate publicly and vote publicly
No chance congress approves this. Zero. They might entertain some IDC reductions/renegotiations, but not a blanket 15%.
Unfortunately they failed to show up. It’s only illegal if someone enforces it.
Thanks for this. I linked this thread in my Substack and made a script for people to use to contact their reps! fromthescienceclass.substack.com/p/biomedical...
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Likely violates the Administrative Procedure Act as well.
They are Budweisering the USA. Cut cut cut, all will be a shit, but we got some money.
The twin assaults on USAID and university research mark the end of Luce’s American Century.
IMO, that putative illegality is behind Trump's move to give the executive branch the right to not spend monies that Congress has approved. When that's in the bag, the next step is usurping appropriation powers. Trump is a simpleton and can't devise such plans, so who is pulling his strings?
@skyview.social Please unroll this thread, Thank you
Absolutely!
Most of the grant programs I used to manage had indirects set by Congress.
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I'm puzzled for why anyone is able to do something without authorization and it just happens until someone tells them no. The default should be "lol no, it's not your decision/we need confirmation it's within your power".
I've been thinking this all day. It boggles my mind
Yeah, Sen. Murray, Vice Chair of Senate Appropriations Committee has a statement out calling it a blatant violation of the HHS Appropriations Bill. I imagine this is going to be enjoined by the courts. I'm sure the universities will have a suit quickly filed. www.murray.senate.gov/senator-murr...
Harvard and Stanford need to get their attorneys filing an injunction Monday. You would think business people would understand a 4-5 year grant is also a contract
John Hopkins too
@skyview.social unroll
The EPA indirect rate is 49%.
We are on course to a return of the dark ages! I hope this is overturned by the courts.
Does this apply to hospitals too, or just universities?
Most research hospitals are run by universities.
I guess my experience is in Boston where the teaching hospitals are university-affiliated, but not owned and operated by universities. It seems like the executive order isn't clear in general though how it effects them
I thought my university with 37% overhead had high administrative costs. We would also have a problem if we only got 15% OH coverage, but one has to wonder what universities with 60-70% OH does with it all. The EU usually gives out 20% overhead coverage.
bsky.app/profile/arch...
1. serfs (that's us, btw) don't need healthcare or education. 2. will Marc Elias EVER get enough sleep?
If they are trying to destroy universities, this is a smart way of doing it. Very difficult to justify 50-70% overheads to the public.
Except they are cutting the same funding to children’s hospitals for cancer research. Pennsylvania Children’s Hospital also has a 70% overhead
This has been explained by Mark Ruffalo in the context of the USAID destruction. ⬇️ Musk is also working to install Reform (UK) and AdF in Europe to kill net zero. Details on my timeline.
Also the administration of federal grants is complex! There are lots of complicated rules about how we can spend the “direct costs” research funds. Other awards from private foundations don’t have those complicated rules. Only the federal funds are difficult..
…difficult and expensive to administer. Universities have to hire expert administrative staff to keep track of the money. No other grants are nearly as expensive to manage.
Flood grantspolicy@nih.gov With inquiries about what can now be line items in budgets: admins? Office chairs? Paper? Paper clips? Printers?
Also the libraries - journal access to relevant fields, with subscriptions north of $50,000+ a year for a single title and all other research materials the university libraries provide.
Also bookkeepers, auditors, HR folks, janitors, HVAC, Electricians, Computer Systems Technicians, Plumbers, Librarians, and more. I too paid high overhead rates but had the whole university infrastructure to lean on.
Characterizing the funding as an endowment in the post is also interesting. This will devastate most if not all r1 graduate programs.
I believe this to be a clear violation of the law, Carl. How IDC rates are set is codified in federal regulations. I expect this to be challenged in court, almost immediately.
but that's the point, Musk doesn't really care which of these programs are cute or survive, it's all about the power and he is playing the odds, he doesn't care, he doesn't see you as 'anything', it's all playing the game, he believes he will always come out on top & there's nothing else to consider
He knows there is no turning back. He knows he’s going to jail for the rest of his life if he loses. He will do ANYTHING to prevent that, act accordingly. You won’t be safe opposing him, but you won’t be safe under him, either.
Who's gonna stop them from violating the court order?
Well, a federal judge is pausing things at USAID. We’ll see what happens here.
That’s the $1,000 question. SCOTUS has already said Trump is above the law. There’s literally no consequences for him to defy any judges orders.
I wish people would stop writing this. They said he can't be prosecuted criminally for "official acts" after the fact, which he already functionally can't because he is a sitting President.
Now if you say this means SCOTUS is in the bag or he'll ignore them as a political or psychological prediction, fine. But legally these aren't the same thing, and I'm not trying to lawsplain, logically that should make sense.
I'm assuming he'll ignore it.
Trump’s above punishment for criming, but what about everyone claiming to act on his behalf? Especially if he is non compos mentis?
That's what the pardons are for.
1. You can only be pardoned for federal crimes. 2. Is a pardon from someone in a state of non compos mentis legally binding?
It’s incumbent on Congress to act as a check and on all of us to pressure Congress.
Yeah, but funding stops today regardless. It could be days before the pause is stayed by a judge, and it may be left by a less-friendly judge. Then it will cost money to go to trial. This is still an immediate national urgency for schools
Nobody said this won’t cause damage. It will for sure.
If only we had cognizant Federal Agencies.
This is a disaster of the first magnitude
This communication suggests that this negotiation process will no longer be the custom (the law? the regulation?)--or that the elimination of negotiation is what's being attempted by this gesture
Wow, what will be the impact on smaller, less-resourced institutions like HBCUs?
To win this messaging scientists and their advocates need to explain the indirect costs SIMPLY. ie Its like an HOA+ (Garbage, water, landscaping, heat in the lobby, janitors), plus MORE (internet, gas, electric, phone, amortized cost of major appliances and repairs). Together >30%of mortgage pymt!!
Yeah I work with federal research grants at a large University and we negotiate our OH rates annually with DHHS, which I'm sure is another agency that's about to get some kind of crazy hatchet job...
They don’t have concerns about diversity, equity and inclusion. They only have concerns about destroying intellectuals.
And fact-based science? Facts are a big problem if you want to rule on alternative facts.
This one's the real endgame. They need intellectuals, despite what they say — they just need ones loyal to them. It's not a bunch of unwashed rubes running the Heritage Foundation. It's about controlling the narrative and further blurring the line between truth and lies, at least as policy goes.
The GOP relies on the idea that their opposition decries the loss of "intellectuals," and the institution of the grand, untouchable ivory tower. They need the opposition to lean into that narrative — because it is, politically, elitist. It misdirects from the real damage it'll do.
Fucking up our world leadership in research universities is the absolute biggest dipshit move yet, and our geopolitical rivals are going to fucking love it.
When you have a head start in anything, anyone with 3 braincells to form a quorum knows you fight like hell to keep it. Pissing it away out of pique / ressentiment / whatever the fuck is going to permanently and severely damage whatever remains of American leadership, and it will not come back.
Bingo
maybe these programs are simply collateral damage. being able to destroy things gives these empty-headed fools a sense of supreme power. Of course, they have no power on their own... to create, to build, to have a great idea. That, and trying to be more powerful than death.
Burn them down!!
Destroy US leadership in science.
Trump exits USA from WHO (incl.cessation of funding) ➡️ adverse impact on research into antibiotic resistance ➡️ a world health risk. www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/trump-s... Trump doesn’t understand anti biotic resistance! www.independent.co.uk/news/world/a... www.nature.com/articles/d41...
Respectfully, I think their goal is the deliberate and wanton destruction of the United States. Seriously.
100% that is the goal: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RpP... Further, Great Barrington Declaration co-author, Trump's pick for NIH head, while having a self-effacing demeanor, is out for blood for perceived issues of censorship. Between him and Bobby, Fauci really needs to leave the country.
I appreciate you covering this. I work at a university and feel like most people are vastly underestimating the impacts to come.
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You'd think a madman who thinks he'll live forever would think that's a bad idea but surprisingly...
Hopefully some smart countries in the EU will realise this and help universities to poach some talent.
We need a succinct, easy to understand summary of this for a general audience. I get it, but I want regular people to know how this will impact them. It is dire, indeed.
Do it.
And the result will be to destroy many companies who supply goods and equipment to awarded awardees. You know who doesn't cut this kind of investment? China.
Yes!!! But that last I might put slightly differently: the goal is to transform higher ed and research into an extractive business model, where efficiency is seen as an end to itself, as long as it returns "shareholder value" and profits for the "investor." It's research as YCombinator. and deadly.
What boggles my mind is THERE IS SO MUCH MONEY MADE FROM THIS RESEARCH. I thought these people could at least be counted on to be GREEDY properly
The game changed. Their objective isn’t national prosperity. Their objective is to serve an incredibly small group of people to further empower themselves. And as long as they are, they don’t care one but about the rest. All the better if everyone else is poor
Hey one of these people managed to lose money owning a casino. That's incredibly difficult! It's a very rare skill.
They feel (and they're probably not wrong) they can make more money if research goes away from public institutions and onto the free market without guardrails, ethics, accountability, etc. Same deregulation narrative they've pushed since Reagan.
The goal isn’t prosperity, or even more wealth (as these folks already have more than they can ever spend). It’s an apartheid ethnostate.
They have more than enough money. What they want is the power to destroy everyone and everything that doesn't serve them personally.
This!!
Oh they're greedy. But it's power they're after, not money. They've already got all the money.
Its a cult-thing.
Yup, we're being overrun by people with multiple Messiah complexes...
I actually think its an American thing that was always there, trump just allowed it to blossom.
You think that the US is the only place that has rampant racists whose presence won't blossom given the right demagogue? If so, you might want to do a bit more reading in history.
Very much no. This is a part of the human nature. But America is always moving the frontier on all aspect in culture, politics etc, so it was so to in the cards that sooner or later a guy would come along. The woke phase was the perfect setup.
You sound like you've adopted the Trumpian and right wing definition of "woke." Considering far more of us are affected positively by "woke" policies than not, especially DEI, which now kneecaps so much biomed research... There was a guy in Serbia, there is a guy in Hungary. To name a few.
The same thing that made America to be the first to land a man on the moon and be s leader in all aspect of modern life also is the seed to what is happening now. America is equally amazing and dangerous.
Research has been the bedrock of American prosperity and technological advances. Trashing American research only benefits anti-American powers. This Trump regime is attacking America on multiple fronts.
The goal is to keep women dumb and breeding, and persons of color as slaves. If that means destroying universities, research, and employees safe, that is a fair price for the goals.
Uh... yeah! youtu.be/3ufwNp78X0I?...
And then we'll *have* to admit more immigrants to do jobs because our own kids won't have the education to do them anymore.
plz put this in context Putin's Puppet is trying to destroy everything @ America Mump want to drown govt, institute martial law & remake society from the ground up if that sounds apocalyptic to ppl that's only because they haven't been paying attention to who these ppl are & who they work for
On the money!
The destruction of all of the things that made America a shining city on a hill, a world leader, a place that people aspired to emulate will not make us great. It will impoverish us intellectually, financially and spiritually.
And since the U.S. lead in technology and services and etc. is due to university educated people and university research, this is also called the long-term devastation of the American economy.
the military research will continue to receive funding, of course
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if true. A lot of great research comes from the military that served the public. I did psychiatric research on mood disorders, substance use, and suicide for many years while working for the Army Public Health Command. Other areas include robotics, medicine, etc
you can do all those things for the public and not for the military. the military needs less money and less control. it's definitely necessarily a bad thing. the military should not be in control of science and research because they only want to use it to more efficiently kill people.
However, I respect your opinion and your view of the harms of the military industrial complex. War causes more harm to health an humanity than probably any other single factor. War is the source of so much lost potential in people and societies. Saying that, we’ve learned much from military research
Yes and no. Much of what we know about trauma and trauma medicine is from military research & couldn’t be replicated in non military populations. Sure, it’s done to keep personnel mentally able for war AND it’s almost impossible to do this research in civilian pops, I’ve done that too, it’s harder
You're certainly not going to get follow-up data on anthrax vaccines from a university study
red state magahole misanthropes will never understand or admit that Dump/Putin/Musk’s goal is to destroy America, to hurt Americans, to hurt the world. Their hate consumes their humanity.
they will never know or care how much their lives are hurt because all that matters is hurting their cultural enemies, their lives continuing to get worse but by marginally less than those they deem inferior to them
chng.it/89hFXXfbB2
If only the American people had been warned about Project 2025…over and over again.
The side effect will be to devastate local economies around and dependent upon such universities. Imagine the effect upon employment of students, faculty, support staff. Their ability to pay rent, tuition, continue their education. And upon local and support businesses. bsky.app/profile/carl...
And of course, there's this little reality. . . bsky.app/profile/jonm...
Screen cap? The post was deleted.
All across the country in congressional districts both red and blue.
Personally I think governments have slowly been on track to do just that. Now it's accelerating. Wish we could be like the scandinavian countries that provide free education for citizens No wonder those countries keep up with larger ones even though they have smaller populations.
Coinciding with news today of the sketchy new “scientific” journal www.wired.com/story/trump-...
Another gift for China.
Talk about destroying something that really has made America great. But all the things they are destroying are things that have made America great. It is tragically, horribly, unbelievably ironic.
That presumes a fair election
I doubt you'll see any more of those. But even so an educated population is a potentially critical population and they don't want that.
They want to keep people stupid so they keep voting for him, and against their own interests
Optimistic of you to expect more voting opportunities at this point 😭
You think it’s all over?
I fear it. Although there will always be a fight, and it's possible (likely?) that it dies to be reborn...
Yes it is, isn’t it?
How can the 15% cap be applied to existing grants? Haven’t legally binding contracts for existing grants already been signed?
NIH grants are negotiated on yearly basis (and often have budget changes) so I imagine it would be quite simple for them to change it then, but given current state of affairs wouldn’t be surprised if it was immediate.
Yes: enable CN to become the preeminent drug research/mfg country in the world. CN devotes countless dollars and effort to acquire US intellectual property by fair means or foul. Wrecking the US research establishment is criminal and the mark of traitors.
Exactly — destroy higher institutions of learning as Orban did in Hungary.
Why are we cutting critical medical research but continuing to fund SpaceX? Fuck Mars, spend the money to save lives. Defund Musk.
While I appreciate your main points, this one is unnecessarily and problematically dismissive of the war against an equitable research enterprise. From this narrative, what I hear is that people of color, those with disabilities, LGBTQI+ are expendable for the sake of institutions. 1/
The idea of a research enterprise -- a university -- that is not equitable, at the very least in principle, is not one I want to invest in. 2/
No doubt the way it is rolling out is intended to completely hamstring us and force us into horrible decisions. But if we're enacting this kind of narrative, the other side has already won. Sacrifices have already been identified. The question is how can move forward in solidarity? 3/
I’m not sure where you’re reading that into my message—is it that I believe this is more than just an attack on DEI? FWIW this feels uncharitable after a day of trying to convince my administration that caving on our diversity efforts was acquiescing to a movement to re-segregate the university.
I truly appreciate your efforts. The intention is not to be uncharitable. That middle paragraph -- perhaps just in wording -- seems to articulate unspoken sentiments from colleagues and university administrators.
This is certainly more than an attack on what this administration refers to as "DEI". And I think we (collectively) have to be worried about the construction of our narrative.
The policy seems to have been hastily written because it keeps mentioning IHE but also says all grants, including presumably small businesses.
"For any new grant issued, and for all existing grants to IHEs retroactive to the date of issuance of this Supplemental Guidance, award recipients are subject to a 15 percent indirect cost rate" (All new grants) and (existing IHE grants)? Or (All new grants and all existing grants) to IHEs?
"This policy shall be applied to all current grants for go forward expenses from February 10, 2025 forward as well as for all new grants issued" Or all current and new grants of all kinds?
...bingo....maga wants to de-educate US....for many reasons, topping the list is to create an even more ignorant, incurious mass of dolts who will believe anything. Truly a terrible directive....challengeable in courts, hopefully
As a director of finance and budgeting for a college of science at an R1/AAU university, this is fucking awful. Like you said, the sole purpose is to destroy scientific research in the US, and higher ed in general
This is their way. Keep constituents stupid so they keep voting republican.
Maybe Universities can become much much smaller and more selective for 4 years? Eat into endowments. Specifically *reject applications from any student who supports Trump, or has connections to junior GOP* to become fierce, concentrated, islands of progressive resistance and science.
Then, in 10 years, there will be no GOP candidates for judiciary, political, financial, consulting, or executive roles for a generation. May their kids go to brain-rotting Turning Point Cult Centres, and face a lifetime of irrelevance.
Their kids can home school. That’s what they claim works.
So it's "America First" until cash is spent to help us, then it's "Screw Americans!" [==*==]
100% correct - This is a part of a campaign to decimate the university system, to terrorize academics, and to ensure that the government can dictate what is "true", free from the influence of science and facts.
"The goal is destroy US universities." Sick to my stomach. Our university system is the envy of the world. Where does Musk think the H1-Bs come from? And just look at all the Nobels from the US, and how are immigrants.
I can very well see this spilling over into other area of research. Like in my field of astrophysics. I can’t see any way universities could function with a 15% maximum overhead rate. Those overheads are vital.
Not sure they really want that. They're intoxicated by their powers and don't think beyond a few numbers. A former French PM once said: « Don’t see a conspiracy where stupidity is enough. A conspiracy requires rare intelligence, but stupidity is common.” It should be true of lunatic fuckery
If you read Russ Vought, JD Vance, Chris Rufo, etc they are vey explicit about this goal to destroy universities. When they then take actions that will have this consequence, I think it makes sense to believe their stated motivations.
I admit to not having read those (censored). I thought they used to just act stupid (very much so) based on ignorance and misconceptions +utter disregard of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
MAGA doesn't want anyone educated past 8th grade, trust and believe this.
@skyview.social unroll
We need economic impact analyses for every state. Research universities are the engines for growth statewide.
Right? States were universities are the biggest employers in the state include several of those swing states that were so important in the last election, including: NC, NM, WI, MI. Others include IA, NE and then NY, CA, VT.
Yes, but I would say AZ more than NM. NM is not really a swing state anymore, but yes incredibly dependent upon research funding. ASU and US are key engines of the Arizona economy, even though some reps like to think otherwise. And I can’t imagine how devastating this will be for LA, IA, NE and co
Yes, I’m sure AZ depends a lot on university jobs. I was just going off the report of the largest employer in states and in AZ it was listed as Banner Health. But, as we know, there is usually research positions in these organizations too. www.usnews.com/news/best-st...
Banner is in partnership with UA
Thanks for the clarification. Not being from the state, I was unaware (although my wife is a Wildcat)
I don’t know much about UA/Banner other than that they are leaders in research on coccidioidomycosis and that they definitely give Mayo a run for its money
Just spotted an autocorrect mishap: this should read “ASU and UA” as in University of Arizona.
That’s the goal. They are eugenicists. Supporting such an evil ideology requires uneducated people
The problem with comparing NIH to gates or AHA or other low/no IDC sponsors is that NIH is bread and butter for most research orgs. We can accept the lower IDC from these other sponsors because we recover full IDC from federal sponsors.
No one will be around to do RWJF-funded research.
When did science become leftist? Science is the pursuit of knowledge.
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Somehow I doubt any university has 15 percent with any contract. I know SPAWAR, part of the government was much higher than 15 probably 50
It's an obvious tell (as if one was needed) that today's notice had its genesis in Project 2025, because it repeatedly uses the term "indirect costs," rather than the standard NIH term, "Facilities and Administration," or "F&A." That comes up once in the whole document.
Before that, it was a goal of the 45th admin www.science.org/content/arti...
And LOL at this sentence: "The shift would also enable it to cut NIH's budget by 22% without greatly reducing the agency's direct spending on science." As if the overhead wouldn't be billed to our directs...
Looks like a lot more admin staff are gonna get direct charged to grants now lol
Foundation overhead caps are inadequate and have been called out for years by the nonprofit sector. The financial gymnastics orgs endure to ensure they remain financially viable while staying in the rules is a waste of precious resource and time. Using this as a yardstick for academia is absurd.
Spell it out, Project 2025 minions, what are these "leftist agendas" exactly? Free school breakfast so kids can learn with a full stomach? Preventing gun violence in schools? Just curious what research you think is acceptable.
Serious question — Are the Project 2025 people trying to overthrow the United States?
Yes
Yes. That was the entire point of Project 2025
And the entire Republican party is on board with this idea?
Apparently
They've been trying to do this since Reagan, yeah
Yes.
Wow, the dark forces are attacking quickly their future opponents
Robert Wood Johnson’s 12% F/A rate is subsidized by universities that employ the grantees. No one will be around to do RWJF research.
I’m honestly astonished at how transparently they point to benefit after benefit, civilised practice after civilised practice, call it all leftist, and scrap it. What can they think will remain but what is brutish, meager, and corrupt?
Actually every change to the federal agencies over the last two weeks has been the goals of Project 2025. Musk is carrying out there mission.
Vance pulling up the ladder behind him
the essence of their cult: "indirect cost cross-subsidize leftitsh agendas"
How many professors will America lose? How many studies can’t complete bc of this cut? How much science moves to more science friendly countries?
Whole programs if not the entire university could be forced to shut down. Even endowments can’t cover what’s needed and why should any student pay tuition?
Even the Project 2025 plan was less extreme, writing „Congress should“.
These people really are *that* stupid. The reason that research institutions can afford to charge private funders 15% is *because* so much core funding is covered from public sources.
Ah!!! So they're doing this to prevent funding of leftist agendas. Imagine their surprise when next year all those $1 million projects become $1.5 million projects, mysteriously.
I work for a large private sector med tech company. We typically pay 35% overhead to clinical sites at universities. And can potentially go higher. And how much money do these morons think goes into DEI efforts? If it costs anything it’s gotta be a fraction of a percent of their budgets.
@alt-text.bsky.social bsky.app/profile/bilb...
.. and this essentially threatens that they will try to claw back retroactively from anyone who complains.
bsky.app/profile/jstp...
Monday is really gonna suck at work.
Appears likely this will be stopped by courts. That's not to underestimate temporary disruptions it may cause or threat to research infrastructure it represents. At the same time there is a coup taking place and this announcement may very well be a calculated distraction. bsky.app/profile/arch...
Are there not contracts? Tell me they can't reneg on existing deals without getting in trouble.
Approved overhead rates are based on actual costs, which aren’t known until after an accounting period institutional fiscal year is complete. Under Federal Accounting Rules if your actual OH rate is lower than the estimated rate you were paid, Feds can claw back the difference.
So the estimated rates aren't nailed down at at grant approval time, and they can be changed at any time (including in the middle of a fiscal year)? (I apologize for my ignorant questions. I'm just trying to understand)
Your institution will generally have a history with the granting Federal agency and a previously established approved rate. That’s the rate you’ll use to draw down your grant money until the year’s costs are audited and a new rate approved.
The last sentence of their guidance maybe suggests it's not retroactive for established awards?
Not lawyers but our read of this is the new overhead rate starts today but universities will not have to "repay" past differences in overhead on extant grants.
Yes, quite the magnanimous statement
This will directly affect my husband’s grant he got last year then. Just.. fuck. Every fucking day w/ this clown who knows nothing and is simply breaking everything he touches.
Wait. I do t understand. It says existing and at the bottom says they won’t be retroactive. So which is it?
Here is my understanding: Suppose a grant was funded at 55% overhead from Jan 1, 2024 to Dec 31, 2026. That grant receives 55% overhead from Jan 1, 2024 to Feb 6, 2025, and receives 15% from Feb 7, 2025 to Dec 31, 2026.
Yeah I just read him this whole thing. His college gets somewhere around 20% which means he got a $385k grant of which they get $85k. The grant went into effect last Sept and it’s a 3 yr grant. So.. even tho he got it before Trump was in offc, this will affect the school and him directly.
It’s not a lot of money, but it’s also a pretty small liberal arts school. So if they have other grant recipients from last year, 5% of everyone’s gone is still significant. This is so discouraging when u know how hard ppl have to work to get grants & how long the process is.
but isn’t a grant a contract?
I don’t know if that matters. Certainly not to Trump. He clearly thinks higher ed is his enemy. So he’s going to make them suffer.
thanks, i know, but he can’t suspend contract law quite yet, i think?
U can scare schools into bending regardless. Punish them, take away their tax exempt status. Things like that. He‘s testing things now. It’s f’ing scary how much power he has.
Applies immediately to all payments going forward on existing grants, but if you’re (say) two years into a five year grant they won’t try and retroactively claw back the last two years’ overheads.
Doing the clawback part of the idea would amount to passing an Unconstitutional Ex Post Facto law.
Well a judge halted it anyway. Thank god for small miracles. We’ll see.
Minor point but the part about it being in effect now only applies to institutions of higher education.
This is the agreement they jacked www.ecfr.gov/current/titl...
And lots of states are facing major fiscal shortfalls this year because the ARRA funding is expiring.
the fact that already-awarded funds are being withdrawn instantaneously across the board is such a gratuitous insult. yet another deliberate move to destroy the bedrock institutions of civil society
Now I know the topic for tonight's emails to my Congress people
Call them. Phone calls carry more weight. If national voicemail boxes are full, use local numbers use 5calls.org to get the local numbers
Followed up with a call to my Republican Senator and contacted my family to reach out as well.
Thanks! It is our job to make sure that ordinary non-scientists know that the USA research and academic enterprise is actually what has powered our economy and enabled our innovation and tech industry since at least WWII
People are actually going to have to go drag this clown out of office before he harms the country more than he has in the past 3 weeks. Good news is he’s pissed off everyone from farmers to scientists.
The only silver lining here - and I do mean only - is that this is so catastrophic that universities will be forced to fight. The frog may end up cooked anyway, but at least it won’t die in a slow boil.
Big endowments can help
That last line in their stupid announcement is so petty
This will surely affect a large number of universities in red states too, right? I guess we'll see if they can raise enough of a ruckus, though I doubt it.
1. Less than in blue states, because red state universities don’t operate on the scale that blue state ones do (fewer people, smaller unis). 2. They don’t care. Leopards, faces, etc.
Might I introduce you to UTSW in Dallas.
Oh, I know. TX and FL are the big exceptions (assuming we treat MI/PA/OH/etc as more “purple”).
North Carolina, Georgia... But also, in places like Idaho & Nebraska the U isn't as reseat intensive, but provides functions that no one else does
External NIH funding is pretty evenly distributed across the political divide. 👇 Where the money went in 2024.
The election numbers are skewed by DT’s incredibly narrow wins in purple states. The top numbers are much closer to the truth.
To be fair, 69% is a bit ludicrous. But 15% is equally so.
Right? I’m struggling to sympathize with Harvard, which has a $46 BILLION endowment.
And I am sure that at UW the internal controls and oversight on direct and indirect expenditures is intense. It seemed like making sure that we were spending according to federal regulations greatly increased during Obama administration
So, what are the chances of setting up a budget fight between the sports part and the research part at universities? I can imagine that's a secondary fight about to happen, fueled by this current US administration. More infighting, rather than fighting the Administration?
It's also worth keeping in mind that indirect rates on federal grants are renegotiated every few years, and a new rate issued. Universities that have a high rate usually do because they've made a strong case justifying their internal costs supporting research activities. It's not random largesse.
Using Harvard is an unfortunate example. I know that money in one place (their endowment), doesn't necessarily translate to usable in any other place (research), but it's a very high profile named school who overwhelmingly could draw form other sources compared to smaller or younger schools.
As an employee of a university receiving one of the highest number of NIH grants as well as some of the highest monetary values, I eagerly await the messaging from the Chancellor's Office on just what the hell our official response will be. At the moment, it is crickets. This is dreadful.
Don't forget that powerhouse the UAW. They represent the postdocs at my institution, and you know that cohort is going to be among the first to be let go. Maybe the UAW will represent their workers and... OK they'll just take their dues until the last paycheck and kiss them good bye.
What exactly do you expect the union to do? Do you have any actual suggestions or are you just another right wing troll looking for excuses to shit on labor unions?
I think there are quite a few in this administration who would be happy with that result
This is about destroying the ‘elite’ & supposed ‘liberal’ ’woke’ higher Ed institutions. The Harvard’s, Princeton’s, Stanford’s….it should be illegal. Full-on project 2025. Every single entity involved in this take-over/take-down should coordinate legal actions. And fight like hexx.
"Universities cannot function..." even less when they lose the tax-exempt status for their endownments, right?
Joke is, NIH grantees never see indirect costs, because they’re over and above the amount of the grant. NSF grantees see IDC taken out of their grants, and so generally hate them (at least I did).
I'm a fan of having lights, internet, and staff support, so I've never hated them.
You’re a bit broader-minded than I, though that might be because I worked for institutions which were continually trying to dock my grants for stuff that should have been IDC.
We’ll see if that opinion changes when instead of research, investigators are spending hours learning about new policies, forms, and procedures as well as their own Biosketches and Other Support. This will cripple research in the US.
No kidding. I quit a few years ago. I was being a little facetious. Everybody knows IDCs are necessary. But I listened to too many university bureaucrats lecture me on how that 50% chunk they were taking was for my own good. And, as I said, with an NIH grant it’s moot.
make sure to let your IRB know that so they can prioritize your review accordingly
Long out of there, thank heavens. Any research I do these days is funded by TIAA-CREF.
And they don’t care.
Universities use good faith negotiations with NIH to set rates. Private schools tend to have high rates.
Does this affect medical research at state owned university hospitals like UWMC in Seattle?
Absolutely. They are the main targets in a sense.
Yeppers! This will kill medical research/clinical trials.
I'm the only known case of a novel form of autoimmune interstitial lung disease. The world's foremost authority on ILD as a category has taken me as a direct patient. He runs the ILD clinic at UWMC.
I am so sorry. Both for you and all my former Alzheimer’s subjects who generously gave their time and effort to participate in the research I worked on. I'm retired now, but the study is on-going- or it was.
That’s exactly why
this is what they ultimately want, a population that is dumbed-down to their level. they want us all to be the drooling space cadets with American Flag overalls on, having similar intellect & critical thinking skills to one who has undergone a frontal lobotomy
