I hesitate to right this, but these are in response to my post that Europe is not responsible for negotiation delays, and it is best to correct the message. Mr Draghi is right, Europe must move quicker on existential issues. We have been too passive in the face of internal+external threats 🧵
(Note, Mr Draghi was not at all taking about Euro-UK relations) It's urgent in the UK too. The best ways to fight populist-fascism in the UK would be to reinforce human rights; distance the UK from anti-European actors; back 🇪🇺in🇺🇦; and drop the redlines and apply to our institutions 2
So should the UK move quickly like he asks? Mr Andreou is more equivocal. Apparently we shouldn't criticise (Labour, others) for wanting to move slowly in fighting populism. (NB UKG has *no* plans to move to Europe's institutions) And the "why" as to the UK's apparent lack of expedition? 3
Firstly, Mr Andreou says the UK hasn't been asked to by Europe. Well, yes. As @philsbodydouble.bsky.social points out, if you want Europe's opinion, you apply. (I would be confident the answer wouldn't be no) 4
Then he says the UK can't do this unilaterally Correct. It can apply. Or it can announce it wants that as a goal. Or it could even ask about a single-market relationship like third-pillar EEA. Or it can continue as now with Farage setting the agenda and Britons not being European citizens. 5
Then Mr Andreou says the time isn't right, because, you know, somebody might veto it. Well, yeah, that's right. You apply. You might get through. You might not. That's the process that everyone else goes through. (the UK is powerful with a huge diplomatic corps. It's well able for this) 6
Really, it seems that when it comes to fighting actual fascism, they're prepared to do anything. Except suffer the lèse-majesté of an actual application. While the UK waits to be invited, fascism creeps on. The original point by Naomi was that Europe needs to expedite negotiations. 7
There is nothing that fascists across Europe would like more that for us to follow Best for Britain's plans and give the UK the benefits of membership without obligations. Then they can turn to voters and say, see, we don't need 🇪🇺 Best go through the institutions 8 @nmwilkinson.bsky.social
It would amount to rewarding Brexit. Britons want to be European citizens, they want to trade freely across the continent, and they want to have the protections of European law. The time to deal with that is now. 9 @edwinhayward
Anyhow, Alex has asked me not to tag him. Fine. Here's the thread he asked for I know this thread will annoy many of you. Alex is a gem, righteous and generous of spirit. I just don't agree at all with this position. It is up to the UK to move. 10
He was the original post. 👇 As I say, the UK would be a valued member if it joined like everyone else and looked to contribute. I know that the destructive status quo outside Europe does not suit you at all and you're ready to change today. Ends bsky.app/profile/nial...
Britons ARE European citizens but not EU citizens. It is important to make that distinction.
erm. the distinction is britons are non-EU nationals now Simona. Because of brexit they have to undergo full SCHENGEN checks. I get Eurostar a lot and am tired of hearing "they're just punishing us" in the crazy EU schengen queues post brexit at St Pancras...because brits are non-EU nationals now.
I like the BfB folks, but it sometimes feels like a "defend Labour brexitism" effort, and this kind of strawmanning (instead of addressing) opposing arguments only strengthens the impression of partisanship as policy 🧐 bsky.app/profile/nmwi...
Yeah, it's a pity, because they are right on so much. But they're adulterating their pro-European credentials in a major way.
Yeah. Undermines the "let's all stick together" message too, when sticking together actually means "shut up and do what you're told, whilst we mischaracterise your arguments"
Veyr much so. Alex simply Was unable to rebut any of the points made. Poor, in truth.
(in order to ridicule them)
what a strange thread. Niall was called out by Alex for cherry picking 2 sentences from the entire podcast to single out @pimlicat.bsky.social and bully her. As a result, that Pro EU B4B group is "pro brexit" now - Is that right? Good job Niall didn't support Labours reset summit stance, eh?
Which thread? No, am saying BfB acts like a Brexitist Labour defence league, and has for years now. AA posted a page of text, ostensibly to show Niall was cherry picking. But on my reading, it showed the opposite. But of course, AA didn't want to talk about it. See👇🏻 bsky.app/profile/nmwi...
It was just another "something something...british exceptionalism" thread from Niall that cherry picked 2 sentences from @pimlicat.bsky.social I'm not going to repeat the discussion. I can see you were part of it. I listened to the same podcast and agree with Alex. It is a form of bullying.
Are you bullying Niall now?
Interesting. So the Pro EU group, B4B, is pro brexit now...and now I'm bullying Niall for flagging up Niall got called out for bullying @pimlicat.bsky.social. is that the general gist?
Or take note that Scotland has been 'rolling the pitch' since we were dragged out of EU. There have been many sympathetic declarations of support.
The biggest issue will always be that the UK and the EU have different ideas of what joining should look like. A majority in the UK support rejoining if the UK has its old opt-outs – without them, support drops considerably. The reverse is true in the EU – support is high for the UK joining
I'd be confident that the British public would support Europe fully were it explained. But either way, there are other solutions. A UK using European standards by law would be so exposed to the US and so forth, and wouldn't be in such peril from its lack of a fixed constitution
I'd like to think that was the case, but lack your confidence
It's not the UK though, is it? You really mean engerland. Scots (62%), NI (56%) and Gibraltar (97%) voted remain in 2016 and that pro EU sentiment has increased since. In Wales too, I suspect. Not sure the EU would fancy a UK gov with Farage's reform party. We already have Orban to deal with.
The survey didn't specify who the Brits were, but it's quite possible that at least some who voted remain in Scot meant under the arrangement the UK had. Less so in NI/Gib prob, given their different situations
falklanders would have voted remain too, if given the chance.
if you're referring to the yougov poll in July, yes it did. Total GB support for re-joining the EU is now 54% according to that poll of 2005 adults in britain. Scotland 66% Wales 53% and england 54% ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/In...
OK, but the bit you haven't highlighted in your screenshot is that even Scotland doesn't have a majority choosing EU membership with Euro and Schengen, only 48%. It doesn't change the fact that the majority of the UK – England, Wales & Scotland – only want to rejoin the EU with previous opt outs
that's not correct. It's britain - not the UK: NI was not included in the poll. Neither was Gibraltar who voted 97% remain in 2016. Don't forget that over 62% of Scots voted remain in 2016. Their only chance of that now is to go Independent. they would happily join the EURO. GBP£ has crashed.
England, Scotland and Wales are the majority of the UK, NI and Gibraltar are too small in terms of population. It doesn't matter how Scotland voted in 2016, the majority don't want to rejoin with the Euro and Schengen now.
without opt-outs, but drops considerably if opt-outs are included. (should have said citizens of the UK and the EU) parliamentnews.co.uk/54-of-brits-...
The big problem isn't that "these guys" didn't find "a slower pace more prudent" it's that they decided this *Despicable/God Awful* Labour government being in power was more important than literally anything else.
As far as I’m concerned (in my own admittance of ignorance), right now most Starmer government fuelled ‘appeasements’ with the far right have their origins in the US and this Trump administration. Maybe even EU hesitancy too (dunno). But Starmer IS an enabler without a shadow of a doubt. A coward!
I happened to listen to that episode, I’m an occasional listener. But where this ended up seems strange to me. We know Starmer is not going to apply to join. Nor make a customs union or anything else. As UK PM he should fight Farage politically on Brexit, ECHR, racism. He should also get some
… radical constitutional reform in place to protect Britain from dictatorship. The front door is open.
Agree with this. The easiest way for UKG to make fundamental changes would be the constitution, security of elections, and voting reform. Clamping down on disinformation would also be useful.
« Europe must move quicker on existential issues ». ⤴️ There is no possibility for that. We can make the argument (Draghi is doing it very seriously and very brilliantly), and the negotiations between 27 (or 25, excluding 🇭🇺 and 🇸🇰) will take a minimum duration. IMHO, it’s not a problem.
Political tribalism Alex blocked me after the GE when I replied to him that Starmer should drop his red lines in order to deliver on his manifesto pledges such as touring musicians. I didn't think the BfB would be like this but they are and now the UK is stuck without anyone informing the public.
It's crazy. I can't really understand their position, other than they've chosen Labour over Europe
Their role during the GE campaign was 100% in support of Labour. They came up with voting advice for every seat. In Scotland they never suggested the SNP as first choice: always Labour even if Labour wasn't able to challenge the SNP. When challenged they simply said they made that choice.....
They did in my constituency, and although the SNP didn’t win, they massively reduced the Tory majority. But Labour, who often lose their deposit did quite well, the story of the last election. I don’t think they published fake MRP. The problem with BfB I think, is that it is too London biased.
The name " Best for Britain " already gave it away I guess. Secondly as far as I can remember it was heavily stuffed with Labour officials & supporters. We know nobody hates the SNP more than Scot Labour That said: they shouldn't have let their hate re the SNP cloud their judgement.
I don’t know that much about the people who work there, other than Naomi Smith. But their MRP recommended SNP. It should have had the same level of accuracy for all constituencies. I also looked at other MRP for my constituency which gave the same results. But probably the statistical model they
Unfortunately I can't find the voting advice list but I'm 100% sure they preferred Labour over the SNP although initially they stated they didn't. After criticism they said it was their choice. Also an anomaly in 2019: pro libdem in unwinnable seats + anti Labour under Corbyn: conclusion???
The link I see between 2019 + 2024 is that BfB probably wasn't that open about their goals. 2019: probably trying to get rid of Corbyn. 2024: GTTO ( Starmer in) & undermine the SNP at the same time.
I did a bit of research. They used Survation to carry out their polling and create the MRP, so it should be as good as any, after all they are a professional polling company. The whole point about using this method is that it accounts for local differences. The polling advice I got from them was
… to vote SNP & this was the same across other tactical voting sites. You obviously had something different. But the general picture then was that the SNP would lose seats and so they did. One of the things I know about Alex Andreou is that he voted for Corbyn in 2015. I also doubt that BfB is…
… interested in the SNP or Scotland in general. London politics loves London. The SNP had bad spell and that was reflected in their support.
… used to predict voting was based on Tory-held seats. The MRP should have been done correctly and not involved any judgement.
The story of the last GE is that people voted for more unicorns on the basis of getting the Tories out. Now the UK has loads of unicorn supporting Tory, Labour & Reform MPs and hardly any SNP, LibDem & Green MPs - all while being unable to fix anything as that means facing up to unicorn fantasies.
There are the same number of Reform & Green MPs but at least GTTO & MRP did deliver a broader range of MPs than seen before. Removing Tories as a theme didn’t work so well in Scotland where there were only 6 to start with, now only 5.
The GE replaced Tory MPs who have no solutions to anything apart from blaming the EU / migrants and wanting single market and customs access to the EU as a 3rd country within their red lines. with... Labour MPs who want and do exactly the same, with the same red lines and the same limitations. 🤷♂️
While I think that’s true for the current Starmer government, it is unlikely to be true for all Labour MPs. And there are enough backbenchers to have some clout, they have already. I don’t know what the solution is. Can you see the LibDems having a breakthrough in the north of England?
We have the whip system and self interest. The UK is in the same position as it was with the Tory govt while the Labour govt is unable to progress anything apart from creating Reform voters while Labour MPs do nothing. Meanwhile, Steve Baker is to the left of Labour. 🤷♂️ bsky.app/profile/adam...
London is nothing like anywhere else in Britain. Its needs are not ours. London’s closest relative is Paris. I still listen to ‘Oh God What Now’ which I enjoy, but which is also too London-centric.
It is crazy yes When Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader I used to argue with a German woman living in the UK that Corbyn had to back the single market to protect her rights. However, she couldn't understand that Jeremy would remove her rights. Now it is the same for Starmer supporters It is tragic 🤷♂️
It looks to me their approach was to get as many people to trust them during the People’s Vote campaign and then convince them that only by voting Labour at every opportunity would help the rejoin goal. This may take several generations, but we need to be patient. And also the EU is to be blamed
That’s exactly what they’ve done. Best for Britain were among the most trenchant critics of Brexit when it could be blamed (mostly) on the Tories. When Labour willingly adopted it, I seem to recall the pro-EU side suddenly being lectured on the need to accept the limits of what was possible.
Just to add more absurdity into the mix. Niall, was so enthusiastic about supporting Labours strategy to get "more within red lines" at the recent EU-UK summit, he blocked people for criticising it!! A priceless "Mr Kettle meet Mr Pot" moment if what you say is true.
Absolutely the case. Partisan tribal/cultist irrationality & stupidity took over rational thought. Yet these are the same people who claim it is somehow everyone else who is out of step & they preach sanctimoniously about 'not understanding politics' BfB are very much driven by Labour sentiment.
And anyhow - the BfB/Quiet Riot posse have now all blocked me for pointing out their faux outrage. Quelle surprise.....🙄
And now there is faux outrage from him & NS b/c they & BfB face push back that they have taken an exceptionalist view on EU fixing Brexit for the UK & back this phantom 'softly softly' approach that Starmer (isn't) actually embarking on at all.
That is, beyond continuous idiotic attempts at salami slicing of bespoke concessions from the Single Market - while refusing to be part of it, or contribute anything towards it.
I personally think that if U.K. applies to join the EU, it will be welcome with open arms. All EU leaders said it directly or indirectly at some point. The U.K. has applied in the past and it was accepted. And the application process will be swift as U.K. is 99% aligned with the EU.
I don't fully agree. But it is 99% certain the answer won't be "no"
For the EU27 to have Britain back in would be a big win to face the new realities in the world. And it is in the treaties. PS. and long term I see Russia joining as well, but that’s post Putin and is a longer topic.
I'm not so sure. A farage/reform party leading in the polls has not gone unnoticed Catio. their raison d'être is the destruction of the EU. Just like Orbans party. NI re-joining with Ireland and an indy Scotland would be welcomed with open arms and wide smiles though.
Agree with you here. I was hoping for an ideal situation where political leaders in U.K. would not be cowards.
there's an in-balance to the UK because of FPTP and the size of the english vote. All three main parties are now pro-brexit, with 2 calling for an ECHR exit, pandering to english voters. Not Scottish, NI or Welsh voters.
The challenge isn't the EU Member States vetoing a UK accession but the UK's own political parties and population. There doesn't appear to be any support for monetary union, membership of Schengen etc. It's a non-starter at the moment.
Question is, would it make a difference when the issue seems to be having to lodge an application rarher than anything else?
Personally I think the issue runs deeper than that
Of course. That’s why those who know better should have the courage to speak up.
I hear you, but no political party/politician is going to advocate for A49 when there’s no appetite for it from the public but how you change that public opinion is another question.
66% say #Brexit was a mistake and a majority would vote to rejoin.
Well yes but that drops to 34% when the full acquis is pointed out, sadly regret for 2016 and a desire to return on the previous terms is not the same as a full join a la A49.
Depends on how you ask the question in these polls. Remember Britain was about to join the € , but they were kicked out of the ERM due to their mismanagement of the economy. And Theresa May was toying with the idea to join Schengen in 2011.
The poll reported in July 2025 found 54% support rejoin in principle, but 36% if euro/Schengen required. Worth noting the UK had a permanent euro opt-out, left the ERM on its own terms in 1992, and no government, including May’s, ever seriously proposed joining Schengen.
Agree And yet the public support for a full EU rejoin is very high despite a political class full of unpatriotic cowards .
The recent polling data I've seen doesn't seem to indicate that. Has there been something new recently? The latest YouGov research I saw put support for rejoining on the currently available terms at something like 34%.
Indeed, but some 30% were DK
Thank you So a majority doesn’t reject it.
That's a good glass-half-full way of looking at it 😀 Work to be done.
36-45 when nobody is even making the case to join the EU is a good starting point.
Yes, esp on what the “available terms” of rejoining would be for the UK. I’m not an ExtrawurstGroßbritannien type, but a Gleichwurst kinda guy. Same requirement to join the euro as applied to 🇸🇪 and 🇵🇱 on joining, for example. Standard Schengen rules. home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/sch...
Sure The thing is both € and Schengen membership would be hugely beneficial for Britain. The £ is a fetish.
But was it not ? de Gaulle who blocked the UK in the 1960s. Given how much we dicked about over leaving, the EU27 agreeing to re-admittance might not be straightforward. And then there’s Shengen and the Euro.
So the UK should not apply because if what a conservative general who fought the Nazis said? You can't find out until you apply. Simple as that.
yep, but, it's worth noting that the UK pulled out from signing the treaty of Rome in 1957...and the conversation behind the "Merger Treaty" in the 1960s. That brought the ECSC, EEC & Euratom into a single structure, collectively known as the European Communities (EC) which became the EU. 1/2
The main reason the british refused to sign the treaty of Rome in 1957 was because of their british empire. The british wanted to pursue a "one-world" economic system with their empire & commonwealth, where sterling was a central currency. Despite so many leaving the empire around then. 2/2
Again & again it looks like the UK is only willing to apply if they get a 100% assurance + no euro + no Schengen in advance. Weird concept: asking to be admitted before applying. What's wrong with facing their own voters first? Why does the EU have to clean up the mess of their own making?
There are currently about 15 different versons of a (re) Join campaign all wanting slightly different things From "euromaniacs" who think Europe is dragging it's feet, to those who want to be exempt from Schengen rules in the meantime, with some absolutely against joining the eurozone and others
wanting vatious other concessions We want to join again, but apparently only on our terms which is why it is unlikely to be happening anytime soon unfortunately
Indeed Because joining the EU is seen as some kind of a big favour we would do to Europe. Britain is not yet mature enough to realise why it is better to join fully and take back its historical role at the heart of European affairs (where the model is of shared sovereignty)
What on earth is a euro maniac?
It’s how Naomi Smith described herself in a reply to one of my posts
Ok thank you.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if a major party wholeheartedly came out and argued for membership without exemptions or special treatment. Would 'rejoiners' then coalesce around the idea, or keep on about their own specific wants / red lines?
It would be fascinating. It would be a game changer, because immediately the other parties would have to either move their position towards Europe, or defend Brexit.
They would of course coalesce.
Yes what is missing is leadership
The Greens wouldn't be enough. However if the Lib Dems joined them..Lab, Cons and Ref would have to come out with their plans.
The arguments to counter the special pleaders are very, very obvious.
That has real implications for Scotland, incidentally
Indy is our problem to solve & diplomacy is important. I don't think the Euro will be a problem but I guess Schengen will be. In the end Scotland will accept all that's required. I think Scotland is still viewed positively within the EU but it's our job first.
Then just join the SM. Join the customs union, integrate with the SM. Why does everyone think it is membership or nothing?
It's a good question. There's still a lot of confusion out there. There are just 2 ways for the UK to join the EU SM now: via EFTA or full EU membership. The EU is moving away from bespoke EFTA/Swiss style deals and during brexit negotiations the UK was told it wouldn't be welcome in EFTA. 1/2
It's also worth adding that labour is a pro-brexit party. So, triggering article 49 (apply to join EU) will not happen "in my lifetime" was the Starmer/labour election promise in 2024. Yet, to get a SPS deal, labour will have to accept ECJ oversight! 2/2
Indeed. Why the UK did not do so to start with is beyond me. #BitFikMe
Because 13 LibDems abstained from it and the motion lost by 13 votes
Because Brexit is a philosophy of permanent revolution. No agreement among mainstream politicians and parties would ever be acceptable. Brexit is never finished. There is always something - or someone - to burn down.
Immaterial
So how would YOU explain the shift from expectations the UK wouldn’t leave the single market through May’s “citizens of nowhere” stance to the even harder Johnson Brexit reached, that nevertheless failed to satisfy the ERG and the strong as ever Faragists?
I genuinely only care about the EU as it is and will be in the face of the many internal and external challenges we face. What Britain is, if of its own making, and that is for it to sort out.
If British people want to act like they're EU citizens in exile then that is up to them. If they want to change that they should mass and vote with the same passion as their opponents. Either way that's up to them.
Indeed. The U.K. can join parts of the EU, but the politicians don’t want to do it because of their racist voter base. However the best for Britain would be to fully join asap.
Britain was accepted to join when it was ready. Schengen and the €zone are small details that by the way, will benefit U.K. massively. The £ is a fetish.
currency is an irrelevance for most people now. over 90% of transactions are digital now or a swipe of a plastic card. the GBP£ is actually almost toxic now and is due another crash, according to economists familiar with some predicting an IMF Bailout for the UK, ala 1970s.
The £ is actually a millstone. It's quite lucrative for speculative parasites, though.
I deal with imports from around the world, mainly wine. The only two countries that accept the pound for payment, are Argentina and South Africa, quite telling really.
The mystique that has been created around it is laughable.
the Scots who voted no to Independence 11 years ago aren't laughing.
I suppose the UK is not ready to join the Euro and Schengen. So no real chance of reentering the EU. Maybe the Norway model?
The EU has always provided many models to U.K., including the Norway model but everything was rejected. We got a very basic deal, but extremely damaging for UK and for the continent (and the world). Unfortunately the current Labour government is chasing the racist vote so they can’t move.
It's fair to say somewhat damaging. But not basic (just nothing like membership). Europe got what it wanted and can live with the trade terms
Fair If we get back to Draghi’s view when we need to work a lot better together to face bigger external risks, ai would say #Brexit was extremely damaging from a strategic point of view.
Yes, agreed. It has hurt us all strategically
May I say a few nuances? We have strategically progressed in the EU thanks to Brexit : we have set up policies in pharmaceuticals, arm industries, common debt, strategic autonomy, digital rules … EU citizens have massively benefited from Brexit.
Yes, in the round. But we would still be better-off with a committed and pro-European UK
IMHO, as long as Britons have not got this ⤴️, a come-back would be damaging for us.
Exactly - and because of this progress, it would be impossible for the UK to re-join on the old terms (or anything near it). That ship has sailed.
The status quo suits us just fine. The UK is no longer a liability, Brexit has been ring fenced. It might be a disaster for the UK but that is another matter.
2/2 And Draghi said the EU should be faster, indeed, to face the challenges from US or China as the world as we knew it is over. But he made zero reference to Britain. If a British leader half the size of Blair would understand Draghi, that leader will make the case for UK to join the EU asap.
It's embarrassing. Starmer would be out of his depth in a puddle.
Problem we have is that the current generation of UK politicians believe that taking the UK back into the EU will be painted as a surrender, ergo, they don’t want to be ‘the one’
Okay. But that's not on Europe
100pc not on Europe, it’s something the UK needs to sort. Until we have someone who can sell the benefits of the EU clearly and passionately then we’ll be stuck in the mire.
In Ireland we're already planning for reunification Miller. With the three main parties in london all pro-brexit now....we're more likely now to see a collapse of the UK Union - with NI leaving the UK, than a re-join of the EU.
So, we're lashed to a catastrophic choice due to their cowardice.
I agree, as long as we get out of the mentality of opt outs / exemptions and a referendum is won on that basis. I currently see no prospect of that option being offered any time soon, given the brexity credentials of our main political parties.
with the three main parties all pro-brexit now....it's more likely we will see NI re-join the EU with Ireland and an indy Scotland triggering article 49. We're already planning for and working twoards reunification in Ireland.
Agree with you here. The British politicians are cowards and unpatriotic. And not a single one of them is half the size of a stateman Tony Blair was (and that’s says a lot!)
Very good thought provoking thread Niall!
Thank you for the royal seal of approval, your Majesty
I’m going to be shouted down for this I’m sure but I think this idea that the UK has some massive secret majority in favour of joining full A49 is so far from reality you may as well be on the moon. Yes there’s regret at leaving, yes people are happy for a closer relationship within reason.
It is true, there is not a massive majority for this in U.K. But the support is encouraging as basically nobody is making that case for it. Imagine Labour & Tories pushing for full EU membership with their media power, including the BBC. But today nobody even mentions #Brexit
That's a strange argument because nobody is making the case against it either. You think that if somebody said this is a good idea there wouldn't be a swarm of opposition pointing out what a bad idea it would be, and not only for the UK but for the EU too. It has masses of it's own issues already 🤔
They're living the argument. And they don't like it.
Well, we have a pro hard #Brexit government who said they will make this hard Brexit work. Then you have the Tories and Farage. And DUP. So you have 4 parties supporting hard Brexit. The real question is how gullible are the Labour voters to accept voting for that party again and again.
That’s not as simple a question as it sounds. Not under FPTP
Well, Labour can change the system from FPTP to PR.
Again that’s an over simplification. At best
Well, we have just 300 characters for a tweet. But my point is that at some point the Labour voters should own their decisions to believe in something but vote for something totally different, knowing that is different but claiming that it is not.
A position agreed at conference
Starmer will count the votes so it won’t pass.
Starmer's actions are worse than that. Resolution passed to include in next manifesto. He ignored it completely.
But we will see all the Starmer propagandist outriders explaining how stupid we are and how a genius Starmer is… and we have no other option than blindly follow his lead.
But the UK is not like other nations in the continent of Europe and it doesn’t have the same affiliation with 🇪🇺 structures or ideals like open borders or monetary union. Support for this supposed pro EU movement collapses pretty quick when you mention the A49 criteria.
My small contribution is to suggest that you shouldn't lump together 'other nations in the continent of Europe'. Here in Italy they don't necessarily share the same traditions/history as eg Poland, but both nations seem happy with full EU membership including Schengen. I'm not sure why the UK can't.
Well I meant no offence, but I’d argue a lot of EU states have had similar experiences despite very different traditions and also a far more intertwined history. Not to say the UK hasn’t been involved in that but it’s different from an island perspective compared to Italy or Poland.
I give you Malta.;)
Ha ha fair enough but I think despite that there are other islands in the EU of course the UK has been built around an idea that’s different to other nations in 🇪🇺. There’s a very different narrative in UK and how it sees itself and that’s based on its experience of the world and Europe.
Like I said I think there’s a lot in common and most of the UK myth can be disputed or disproven but it’s about how the UK sees itself as to why its acts the way it does. I’d argue it goes a long way to explain that is why it doesn’t behave in the same way as say Poland or Italy.
I think this completely underestimates the extent to which current EU countries had, pre-EU, huge differences, rivalries, and often saw each other as polar opposites. They had suffered land invasions in some cases! To say they were all the same is a very funny example of UK exceptionalism.
I never said they were exactly the same I said they had similarities that are more closely entwined than the UK has. Please don’t twist my words
Hi, no twisting intended. I'm just saying that you underestimate how different these countries were and in some cases the animosity between them. Being invaded by a neighbouring country does not typically foster brotherly feelings.
I also think the UK has a very different perspective based on its own internal history compared to many EU states which has given it a very different mindset and for good or ill a sense of exceptionalism and that it is not the same as the other states. I’m not saying that’s true btw
It only collapses because it's not explained what the benefits are. There are, in practical every day terms, no downsides. It's soundbite hearing by the uneducated. They don't want to be informed, they monopolise the narrative but actually don't represent the majority imo.
Correct. You can hardly say support for something collapses when there has never been a case made for that thing.
Maastricht and the treaty of Vienna ? I may recall differently but wasn’t exactly enthused support at the time for either? I would agree there wasn’t exactly a positive campaign made but the public weren’t exactly falling over themselves for € or Schengen, held back by a reluctant political class.
My point exactly. If there has never been a positive case made, you can't really say support for rejoining would collapse. Let's make one and then see.
Well that’s fair enough, but there hasn’t exactly been a ground swell for pro € or Schengen since 2015 and lord knows the number of column inches that have been dedicated to explaining the EU in the last decade. I still think it won’t sell in the UK but I’m wholeheartedly open to people campaigning.
And why not? Because the case was never made. The Daily Mail etc al were all about 'sovrinty'...
The opponents of Maastricht were proven totally wrong. Let's revisit their scaremongering predictions, by all means. Nobody under 40 cares or even knows what the issues were at that time.
By all means have a positive debate and outline the scaremongering. I’m not saying a positive case shouldn’t be made I’m just highlighting that currently, and historically, there is an overwhelming consensus against monetary union and open borders with Schengen which nails any A49 dead ☠️
Rubbish. It can't nail anything dead if one side of the case hasn't been put. Especially when the other side is half truth and rumour.
Well we can agree to disagree John, but I’d be amazed if you suddenly see the public turn tail and head towards full A49 and Schengen after an information campaign on what the benefits are.
Like I said I may be wrong but I think this is half the issue. The idea there’s a secret majority in favor of € etc if only we explain it better is really just wishful thinking and the data clearly shows that.
The 'overwhelming consensus' is being led by the media and Farage types who whip up hysteria. There at it right now with immigration.
It was a long time ago but as I remember the jist was 'if Maastricht is passed its inevitable that one day we'll wake up in a country called the EU'. This never happened
There’s no such thing as just net +. Every decision is a balance of net + and - . Saying otherwise got us in this mess in the first place and is dishonest. Id also argue that why they’re not that engaged with the full acquis is more than just poor descriptors, it’s far deeper than that imo.
In the everyday life of people in the UK I literally cannot find a negative that is not conjectured 'loss of sovereignty' intangible guff!
I don’t disagree with you but it’s not great to run a campaign on, no downsides just upsides, as I think we all know. You need a constructive argument why your positives beat the negatives people may perceive to be an issue, whether you agree with those concerns or not you’ll need strong arguments.
Agree. The case has to get made.
I think most of these discussions show a complete lack of understanding of most Brits and their actual opinions rather than the echo chamber of voices that surround these threads. I’m not saying they’re wrong but I think half the reason you all fight is because you’re not being at all realistic.
It’s not that I disagree with much of what you say - I agree with most of it But the question then becomes: is that it? Just accept all that as simple fact and never question it and everything stays the same? Because how do you measure when change comes? And how we reach that point?
I think my responses sometimes come across as downbeat and that we should just accept the status quo. I don’t agree that should be it, I think a more pragmatic discussion needs to be had away from the finality of all in or all out.
IMO there’s room for another relationship that’s not full A49 and not TCA. I think Niall has a point that a 3rd pillar option should be explored and I think a more honest discussion needs to be had with the public about the costs and benefits of any relationship.
In all if this, opening and having the discussion is a great idea. The way Iceland has just done.
Niall means well but there is no such thing as a 3rd pillar to the EEA. It's also very confusing language. The EU already has a 3rd pillar but that is to do with policing, home affairs & judiciary, not trade. It also displays a deep misunderstanding of the SM - it's an ecosystem not a candy shop.
However,dragging an unreluctant UK into the 🇪🇺 full A49 isn’t going to end well but I think that once the foundations of a more positive relationship (SM/ FOM? + obligations/ building TCA)have been laid there could be room (I’m doing some heavy lifting here) for a deeper relationship, 🤔
"a reluctant uk"? Are you unaware Scots (62%), NI (56%) and Gibraltar (97%) voted remain?
In my view, we would have a govt that spends time talking about what we could achieve within the eu, using examples and building a coalition to move the uk from “reluctant” (a phrase I’m not totally in agreement with even now) to “v interested” and then engaging with the bloc But with this media??
Agreed the media is a huge issue tbh and yes totally to a more grown up discussion. I think reviewing the cost of Brexit to date and the future cost of Brexit would be a start. Then what would EU be open to/ potential benefits (to both sides) and of course what would public be willing to accept.
Well we don’t need to spend too much time in what eu would be open to. It’s terms are clear Either GN internally positions its voters and governments and applies or it should just keep to itself tbh If we are still taking about optouts I despair Sometimes I just wish GB would have a normal one
Bollocks.
Very grown up Richard care to elaborate on your insightful reply?
Sorry, triggered by the level of assumption there. Beyond the usual suspects (including many politicians), I simply don't believe that most people in the UK regard themselves as different from any of the rest of Europe - I regard that level of exceptionalism/xenophobia as largely a media construct.
Yes agree with the media construct but I don’t agree that most people would respond in the affirmative to identifying as “European”. I can see people saying that we have similarities with other EU nations but I don’t see Brits identifying in the way say as the French or Germans do to an 🇪🇺identity.
Been trying to find some decent polling. Try this: bfpg.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/u... Showing overall 51% of Britons identifying as European (44% not). 18-25-year-olds (60%), ABC1 (58%), London (57%), Northern Ireland (57%) and Scotland (56%) Anyone got figures for other countries?
Well I’ll rephrase my point, an extremely thin majority have identified as European …. If you can find the data on other nations like euro barometer I’m fairly certain it’ll back up my main point that a lot of Brits don’t identify or feel affinity with the EU in the same way that other states do.
Rabbit hole time: The latest Eurobarometer, on the question of how attached you feel to the EU, has a total ratio of 63:36 in favour, which I guess is the nearest equivalent. So usual caveats about methodologies and comparisons apply, but that does look significantly in excess of the UK figures.
