Buddy, I wrote it.
Teacher, Ethnographer, Arabist; Lecturer in Anthropology and author of Affection and Mercy: Kinship, Islam and the Politics of Marriage in Jordan ♥️🇯🇴♥️🇵🇸 (he/هو) https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=lLU0JwkAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao
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Buddy, I wrote it.
Not really but points for at least attempting to read it before coming to antagonize me. Those problematic aspects are definitely very deliberately described in the article so as not to romanticise anything. Probably better for both of us if I just block you after this!
I'm not sure what you think you're proving by showing me all these failures of the US carceral system to protect people, but you're not convincing me you have a good justice system.
Mercy (the hint is it's in the title)...
Well I certainly wouldn't want to be in a position of saying state violence was always to be accepted beyond any possible question as uniquely legitimate--especially not if I was in the US right now...
This rings true to things I’ve witnessed and read. We cannot blame individuals for systematic failures but we should be able to acknowledge group based status behaviors as reinforcing those systemic failures.
The *monopoly* has arguably existed mostly in soc and poli sci textbooks. Don't get me wrong: I too like the idea of a state that does exactly what I want having a monopoly on violence, but I don't see that happening soon (or even anything close), so I'm an advocate for exploring lots of options...
Oh no I get it: white liberals take the labeling of racism far more seriously than racism, which is why you're not gonna leave me alone til I block you.
Lol, I hope he sees this bro!
It's fine and arguably good to read even Nazis for what they're saying and not make up lies. I would just like the same courtesy!
Many things, but for starters the idea that the state has a *monopoly* on legit violence is very new (arguably still highly contested), while the idea that the state can have armed goons is very old. But this borderline violent insistence on not getting the distinction is-I argue-bad.
Really hope people are looking at Starmer if they want to see where appeasement leads...
Hope you're right but I gotta say the day I've had has reminded me not to underestimate the libidinal appeal of those post hoc rationales--even and perhaps especially for people who think of themselves as exquisitely rational!
I'm not. Good grief. Learn how to read.
The number of insufferable people going out of their way to say this site doesn't have the juice is exactly how you know that it's ours for the taking...
"We exterminated the competition so we're best" is really peak American liberalism. No notes!
And it seems to me like I annoyed a guy who has a small but militant fandom full of close reading enthusiasts who don't actually like to read and he mischaracterized my claims because he's in a bad mood and I'm just refusing to apologize for things I never said.
I'm trying to argue the whole binary has become an obstacle to thought and I feel like the world is out to convince me I'm right today...
-Bring back the draft but for policing. No one who wants to be a cop should be one. And/or - you’re required to have a law degree to do it.
Yes! And if you check mentions people say these are crazy, would never work, would defeat the whole purpose of policing... Which was all I was saying about how rigid the thinking is (on both sides, as the article argues, but everyone cussing me is a reformist so here we are!)
That's actually me quoting him but you make some good points. You should go post this as a reply to the guy who said this.
This looks great!
If someone had asked me a decade ago about various forms of abolition, I'd have said of course we need police and punishment b/c we're socialized into simply accepting it in the west. Then you do the research and now my papers all have sections like this- www.pnas.org/doi/full/10....
This is exactly how I feel
Sure, but in the midst of this exercise in pointing and laughing at the guy who actually went out and did empirical research on restorative justice (and merely said it's complicated and messy but also interesting for people grappling with questions of justice elsewhere), that's not how it reads.
Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks Nick! I've had people yelling at me that I must want the US to adopt this wholesale all day and I'm glad at least someone gets it!
Well, I think "peer country" is a concept that's often deployed in racist ways to dismiss former colonies and the global south in general. Sorry if you take that personally!
This is a grounded anthropological account of an actual non-carceral justice system written by someone actively thinking about the lessons it might have for other places Met Geoff doing fieldwork in Jordan. He's a great, smart guy. Give it a read!
Look, I dish it out like I get it. You clearly don't respect me. Why would I lick your backside here?
No I just mistook you for someone who wasn't out for an apology on behalf of the much maligned American White Man...
Lol as opposed to everyone yelling at me in my mentions like I've never considered the downsides of blood feuds?
It's not my fault that you're not coming off the way you want to here!
Look, maybe you're trying to have a good faith conversation here about how America has nothing to learn from Arab Bedouin whatsoever for completely non-racist, non-chauvanist reasons, but it's hard for me to tell and I never called you a racist, so maybe you're revealing more than you think here!
Have someone with 30,000 followers lie about your work in a way designed to derange all their followers and then get back to me.
It's more a call for humility, thinking about things differently and learning from others instead of dismissing them out of hand, but asking that from Americans (no matter how debased their country gets) is admittedly far too much. Just block me and move on with your life!
I think you're vastly overestimating how much I'm thinking about you but I sincerely hope he sees this, bro!
For one thing, they're far wealthier and have entrenched corrections and police unions that love the status quo and would like even bigger prisons. But yes. There are many. Sounds like you've got it figured out though! No need to keep talking to me!
All the elite thinking seems to take the promised centralization of command and control at face value, but what if it's more like the US and Russia inventing drones and then seeing how a bunch of more decentralized actors can use the technology to spam them inexpensively at-scale?
Well, sounds like you've got it all figured out in Trump's America! Good luck with that!
I again remain surprised that the people in charge don't seem to have really thought through the weapons of the weak potential of this technology...
Why are you talking to me then? (Please don't answer: that's rhetorical)
Separate but equal, if you will!
Anyway, it's very interesting how a lot of US liberals are extremely mad at me right now for pointing out that a country awash with guns and impoverished refugees that has institutionalized blood feuding has lower murder and incarceration rates, but don't seem interested at all in asking "why?"
Obviously I'm not proposing that, but you'd have to read for yourself instead of just taking what the Nazi-whisperer says at face value.
That's funny because the history of legal systems would definitely beg to differ on this point.
Sorry, but I grew up in Winston-Salem North Carolina and as we used to say, that dog won't hunt. Also: cultures do this literally all the time. Cultural holism is absolutely overrated.
The Bedouin idea of mercy is definitely NOT the Sesame Street one! Read the article! You might find it interesting!
That's definitely not the Bedouin idea of mercy! Read the article! You might find it interesting!
I'm presenting it to illustrate how straightjacketed our thinking about the nature of policing is and how there are other ways to think about justice that have their own problems but might still teach us stuff.
Well, sure, but you can't really connect them up in a way that makes me look bad. (Hint: the "best practice" as I see it here is mercy)
Yeah, you got me. I think mercy might be a best practice!
Interesting. Maybe there's a reason you have to lean on OP's dishonest characterization of my work to make this stick?
Are you denying that these are factual statements? They're hardly the only metrics I care about, though! Read the article! I discuss the problems in excrutiating detail!
What is "it" here? And where?
People say this site doesn't have the juice, but I've got literally tens of people cursing at me while simultaneously expecting me to walk them-personally-through a 7,000 word article that begins with a brief abstract.
I get it though: I'm not a Nazi so I'm not entitled to a good faith reading!
A) Nobody likes scoffing at academics more than academics B) I'm definitely not. I'm trying to illustrate how the whole idea of policing (and justice in general) has become very rigid by showing something messy and hybrid that's absolutely got its own problems
Not gonna bother engaging if you're going to be like this. The article is free to read!
The article is about the idea of mercy, but the whole point is that mercy has a dark side and that you can't really separate out retributitive and restorative justice. I definitely do not think that reintroducing traditional indigenous justice is always a good thing and go out of my way to show why.
The thing is: they love cops even if the feeling definitely isn't mutual.
Funny you say this because I directly address this at length in the article because it's not true: many former settler colonies have revived these traditional practices *because* POC are now in the majority and are reshaping justice in their own interests. But I don't think it's all upside...
Please show me where I said it was superior.
Have you tried complaining to the manager?
I suppose thinking any other culture might teach you anything about anything is a "noble savage trope"... if you're determined to think your way into being a racist with half-remembered anthropological jargon...
Ever heard of the Hatfields and McCoys? The US did historically model its justice system on vendettas at certain points. It's the idea of mercy that I think would be interesting (though I can now see that expecting Americans to appreciate this is too much).
Then why am I going so far out of my way to say this is sexist?
I didn't say it was worse! It's just a different set of problems. That's more of him misreading/mischaracterizing because he's mad. For a guy whose whole deal is accurately summarizing conservative arguments, that should tell you something about his whole deal, really!
I'm using a system of justice that I think has good qualities (mercy) and bad qualities (vigilantism and sexism, for instance) to try and get people to think about policing and justice in ways our language and culture tends to prevent. Far easier to just laugh me off though!
Yes, I'm criticizing it for that. (It's my paper)
Almost as if I'm not presenting it as a model and he's either bad at reading or lying because he wants to score imaginary internet points.
I'm not proposing it as a model. I'm interested how traditional bedouin justice has been combined with the modern administrative state in Jordan (insurance claims, military benefits etc.). But you'd rather hippy-punch and scoff at academics for your know-nothing fans than actually read something...
I suppose to be fair that white liberals will never see non-whites as peers?
You: too much pontificating on the platonic nature of law enforcement and not enough treating it like a concrete policy problem where we look at best practices from peers that get better value for money Me: Does that You: First of all, how DARE you.
It's so funny that you would put me on blast like this when I'm describing a concrete justice system that has far lower homicide and incarceration rates than the US... anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirec...
I know what you mean, but I'm giving you the level of respect I think you deserve given your inability to distinguish between a period and a question mark in a post insulting someone's writing.
If you want to pay me to re-write it as a big print book with pictures, I can see what I can do!
Very funny to have the OP and his fans decry the lack of creative thinking about criminal justice reform and then when someone presents an alternative model to re-frame some conceptual issues say "first, of all: how DARE you!"
In some ways yes, in other ways no. I think it's very sexist (for instance) but I'm interested in the focus on mercy and especially how it doesn't create hard conceptual boundaries between retributive and restorative dimensions of justice.
I can imagine many alternatives! The article even describes some of them! The fact that I don't think it's "perfect" is another matter.
These are obviously reformist suggestions, but the hostility seems telling!
Personally, if I was ruled by Donald Trump, I would try to cut the ego a bit and see if other cultures might have something to teach me even if they still have their own problems!
Look, I get it! You want a chud with the full force of the state behind him who will show up, sympathize with your plight and then do your violence for you! Good luck with that I guess, but I don't see why you would think I'm the smug one for just accepting that's not really in the cards here...
It's an interesting hypothesis and you might be right that there's a niche for a kinder gentler microblogging site, but I do wonder if the roasting and cliques is sadly what keeps the punters coming back...
Yeah, it reminds me of how Jonathan Haidt (/The Anxious Generation/) has made a name for himself projecting his own frustrations as a middle aged academic with hundreds of thousands of Twitter followers onto depressed teenagers.
Come on! You love it! As a longtime heavy user of a number of microblogging sites, can you really honestly say that this sort of reaction isn't exactly why you just posted this thread?
It always seemed obvious to me that microblogging is fundamentally a masochistic practice. But the idea that the continued dominance of twitter means that microblogging should be *nicer* is just downright implausible...
Based on your reading comprehension here, I would never accuse you of thinking!
Lots of good reasons to hate us Yanks of course, but this upper class fantasy of the US as some "woke" hellscape where top unis are scraping for "diversity" is just silly. These unis have the money and clout to have whatever demography they want. Only barrier is keeping the parents of legacies happy
I assume the load-bearing pillar of this story (and why the UK press bought it) is racism plus a bit of middle class anti-Americanism: they just assume Stanford is this pressed for "diversity." But the reality is that anyone who takes the SATs ends up drowning in this stuff. I know I did.
US unis regularly spam people who have no hope of getting accepted with advertising in the hopes of getting them to apply and thus raising their rejection rates because it's an important part of how rankings are calculated. Very funny to imagine this becoming part of a UK politician's mythos.
Full article (open access): anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirec...
My own very humble contribution to these debates. Do I think the Jordanian model where they've hybridized policing and tribal blood feuds is ideal? Lol, absolutely not. But I do think a lot of people in the West are in a real mental rut when it comes to thinking creatively about these questions:
No guns on the beat. Uniforms could be pastel or pink. Training could involve so much talking people down that the attrition rate is like 40%. You could mandate at least a 50-50 gender split. But would people be satisfied this was still "policing"? I think most police supporters like the chud part!
If that was all there was to the institution of policing then there wouldn't be the lack of creativity about reform that you were decrying, but it looks like the reformists have trapped themselves in their own motte and bailey here...
Love how half the negative replies are calling you stupid for thinking a society can function without all-purpose goons and the other half are calling you stupid because they think you should be grateful police have replaced all-purpose goons with something very special and democratic.
But you can sell a recession as efficiency gains to shareholders... At least long enough for some of your stock to vest...
That's an interesting idea. My thinking was that this is directly correlated in large part with Fox News etc running segments on how this is something only "the left" would do...
As someone who grew up in a red state, I can safely say that many of these Trump voters are simply lying-- or most charitably that they're taking the opportunity to further signal their jealously guarded political commitments through their answer here.
I think that this sort of mysticism-soaked "playing Indian" (cf Phil Deloria) is probably what that's going to end up looking like in practice, sadly...