and nobody's going to be able to grab the ring - CERTAINLY not Fuentes - because you need to be able to code-switch between Christian Pastor and also Charm The Grandmas and ALSO gutter-racist antisemite Branch Hitlerian Dialect. and nobody is going to be able to do that like he could.
Nothing to see here folks, just a timeline adjustment.
So a Groyper may have inadvertently saved the world by proxy. Ironic, but good, in a FAFO sort of way.
no, Fuentes is definitely not ready for prime time, despite having dined with Trump at least once. he looks like a grubby potato
Thanks for that. I needed to know that there isn't some jerk on the sidelines who can jump into that ugly space.
This is fascinating, and it puts a lot of the reaction to Kirk's death in a new light - it's not just bigots vs. marginalized, it's people who responded to Kirk's charisma vs. people for whom his charisma meant nothing, two overlapping but not identical opposed sets.
Halfway through this thread, and it’s like… did we just dodge a major catastrophic bullet here?
Well, Kirk certainly didn't.
👀
To your point - this is also why Ben Shapiro would never be able to successfully fill the same role.
Precisely. Ben Shapiro is a geek who wishes he were a 6'2" infantry Colonel, and the fact that he's not drives a massive inferiority complex that is immediately obvious. Desperation is the worst cologne.
I mean, there’s that, but more specifically I meant that being Jewish precludes him from taking up the mantle of Christian nationalism in the Republican Party. The true believers will gladly have him in their ecosystem, but they’ll never in a million years let him truly *lead* them.
some people have said "oh the billionaires will just decant another one" or install Tim Pool or Hanania or something like that but, I need you to believe me when I say that that is *not how this works*, and Turning Point was the work of decades, and Charlie Kirk was load-bearing for it.
i understand that we're real deep in the shit in lifechanging ways that we will not understand the full ramifications of for decades but i won't lie to you this is the most optimistic thread i've read in a week.
I feel like what I see in what you're saying is that this is the assassination of RFK (Sr.) for MAGA and we should be watching for their 1968 DNC down the pipeline.
Interesting, but in this analogy, what is their Vietnam War? What is so deeply unpopular that it steamrolls their rift and renders it largely irrelevant? Trump and MAGA itself?
Immigration as one driver. Farmers have lost their workforce over the raids and deportations. And many Farm products were exported but not any more. Plus food inflation is already skyrocketing.
The Epstein Files, I would hope and assume. Like, surely (he sweated, being not at all sure) pedophilia is still considered distasteful by a lot of the base.
👍 If (optimistically I’d like to say when) the Epstein Files are released, they’re as explosive as I assume they have to be to get as much pushback from Trump and the current spineless Congressional GOP, that could have as catastrophic an effect on MAGA as the Vietnam War did on LBJ’s presidency.
Hard to see even MAGA staying on board with video footage or some other damning evidence of Trump and Epstein molesting children together. But who knows? Something has kept Congressional opportunists in the GOP from throwing Trump under the bus.
yes! yes, exactly.
People complain about Democratic infighting. This is another level.
It has been going on for awhile. The Reagan/Bush GOP is nothing like today's MAGA controlled GOP. Remember the 2018 House election? They purged the old guard of the Repubs.
Historically fascists don't like or trust even each other. They maintain alliances right up until they don't think they need to anymore and then they purge. The more power they have at that point, the more bloody the purge.
Ok this is super helpful. Thank you!!!
2025-2012 cannot be easily replaced. Are we on a Brigham Young or James Strang timeline? We know how these situations go!
I just hope we're not on the Nehemiah Scudder timeline.
Are you saying this was a "go back in time and kill baby hitler" moment?
i'm avoiding saying that with a carefulness that suggests that i may have some thoughts on the matter
Not saying the theory isn't sound, but Kirk changed his stance, basically saying: I trust the president when he tells me there's nothing there, and we should put this all behind us. That detail can still support your theory (he could swoop in, and claim he was fooled too), but needs update.
yeah but he changed it back again more recently. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwik... I mean not really, as JCC points out it was undoubtedly more calculatedly cynical than actually giving a shit about the victims, but, yanno.
I thought the groypers were mad about that too?
like this bsky.app/profile/matr...
I understand that he recently reversed that.
As an observation on this *specifically*, does anyone remember Andrew Breitbart? How much clout does Breitbart News carry, now that he’s gone? I think you’re right about this; part of the issues lies in his insight & flexibility, and part lies in his ability to be personable while being horrid.
When Breitbart expired under the newspaper rack Bannon was involved with him but I don't know if this lasted.
I believe Bannon moved on; I don’t know if he took his money with him.
Super excellent thread. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This is so right. They can't just decant another one!! Have you SEEN Richard Hanania, heard Tim Pool SPEAK?? These little weirdos are never going to have the broad appeal of Charlie Kirk. He was genuinely the full package
Or Miller? Yet Kirk could argue for the same crap but he came off as a tRumpy Bear.
Reading this thread has me swinging between “Know thy enemy” and “It is so fucking exhausting to care about any of this and I just want to go outside and take a walk”
lmaooooooo imagine what it felt like writing it *highfives*
Thank you for your service 🙏
Thank *you* for wishing ill on fetid bigots!
Us 60+ and 70+ just said we need to understand what all these terms mean, looked them up, tried to follow this and then hubby just sighed and said, "I am going to go outside and fire up the tractor."
What about Crowder? People were even getting them mixed up.
Pretty clearly abused his wife (at least verbally if not more) before she divorced him. That’s nothing (or a positive) for the Groypers but probably hurts with code-switching for people who are merely confused old racists
Also Crowder has vanished into the ether ever since his divorce
Kirk was a dropout who's work includes an Ayn Rand term paper published as a book. A classic. His job was giving idiots on campus talking points. His influence is way overestimated. Radicalism today is driven mostly by social media. Youtube and Instagram dwarf Kirk, not hard.
Dare I hope this might result in the end of actual power for these types of guys? Or is it too soon to know?
Lord, I hope so. I do think they *really* fucked themselves with this, my entire thesis is that this was an unrecoverable unforced error on their part, and I mean, I wanna be right, which means I have to resist motivated reasoning, but I also think I'm right, enough to be hopeful
Faction fight! Ever read "Push Comes to Shove"? When pro labor democratic socialists split with the anti war democratic socialists. We ended up with Nixon. Humphrey vs McGovern factions couldn't come together.
As someone else has already pointed out, it's "SA vs. SS Part Deux" all over again. I also hope you are correct, J.C., and you make a strong case for it. There will unfortunately be a period of troubles no matter what, but perhaps the next crop of weeds has been pulled early before they take root.
What was the substance of the beef between Kirk and Fuentes?
Should Israel be supported to help bring about armageddon (Kirk) or is there no use for Jews beyond target practice (Fuentes)?
Crypto-nazis vs. open nazis.
Is there any ideological distinction? Or is it all performative?
significant ideological distinctions, although Kirk gave up on a couple of the more important ones to keep the neo-nazis on board
Just started reading and it kinda mirrors the leftist/liberal divide here as to purity vs pragmatism.
www.isdglobal.org/digital_disp...
Thanks! Also, you may truly want to start diving into the Baudrillard I’m finding it helps provide a mental framework to understand this insanity.
Baudrillard and Barthes, baybeee, all day every day
YOUR SUBJECT IS MY OBJECT ALWAYS AND 4EVA
many people are saying
aw nuts i don't wanna read theory
I know it sounds crazy but theory is one of the only ways to reduce my blood pressure and anger now that I’m sober.
This is a fantastic thread that seems to explain why so many Rs are taking maximalist Groyper positions publicly and translating that into action. Makes it look like Rs are really afraid of them, so maybe the Groypers won? And like people who win, they now want more? Full recoginition?
I did have the hack thought of "so how does this affect the maga movement" without really knowing anything in depth about tpusa. This helps thanks
Looks like we dodged the bullet that he didn't.
🔥
One question about this, because I don’t follow them closely. But I listen to Knowledge Fight and Nick is pretty regularly on InfoWars as a guest. Nick seemed pretty eager to throw Trump over on the Epstein thing, and I thought Kirk was more loyal. Did that shift?
the more i look into recent speech acts the more it feels like the two of them were doing this weird fucking dance of positionality with each other around the epstein files
i'm confident that the Groyper Wars were starting back up about it but I'm less certain than I'd like to be what the sides actually were or stood for
Yeah, they definitely hated each other.
Yeah, as near as I can tell Kirk went full "trust the process" in mid-July and I don't think he's done anything to walk that back (though grain of salt, I try not to get any of him on me). My first thought re: timing was "someone saw Kirk fold on Epstein, saw the birthday book, and..."
Regardless of whether the shooter was actually a groyper, one dog is certainly hollering like it's been hit: bsky.app/profile/chro...
i'm pretty certain he was at this point, i can't figure out what other group would dress up as Pepe and Trump for Halloween and write stale memes on their bullet casings
I think the Slav Squat Halloween costume isn't actually a Pepe reference (check the hat he's wearing). Shooter could simply be Internet poisoned.
Or a groyper. Or joker-pilled by the birthday book. Or part of since some other weird fucked up Internet cult.
ah, wait, was THAT what people were saying was him "dressing up as Pepe?" i swear to god people who don't know what a meme is need to stop doing analysis of this stuff
Been thinking about it for different reasons. But once they’re gone, a person can’t be replaced.
Yes. I've been saying this about Turnip for a while now, that even tho' JD is a Thiel acolyte (or whatever) there is no way Vance replaces Trump if the "awful" should happen. I hadn't really understood or appreciated the same thing in Kirk's universe, but thanks to this thread now I can see it.
Will learning more about the groyper war stuff clue me in to how/why kirk was exceptionally load bearing?
read about the Groyper Wars, read about Turning Point USA and its history and its involvement with Trump's campaign in '24, that'll bring you up to speed
@velshi.com Here is your Breaking News A block for next weekend - this Right on Right violence needs investigation and nobody in MSM has or will have any perspective on this.
There's a joke in here somewhere about how people say if they could time travel they'd use it to go back in time and eliminate Hitler
Uh, yeah. bsky.app/profile/ston...
was listening to The Bulwark FY Pod last night and PARKLAND SURVIVOR Cam Kasky, of all people, said that Charlie Kirk in person could be perfectly pleasant and affable, whereas other RW personalities came across as robotic / weird / off-putting.
One of Charlie Kirk's HS buddies was interviewed on PBS Newshour last night; seemed conflicted; sorrowful that his former buddy/mentor was killed, and wanting us to know he'd dissociated himself years ago from Kirk's forays into racism/sexism/homophobia. www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpDe...
This looks like a worthy segment to watch. Thank you.
I'm sure this is true or even in this corrupted age he wouldn't be currently slobbered over by the entire fucking media. He charmed them personally. If they thought he was an unpleasant prick, it'd show.
Before the Parkland shooting I found myself working with and befriending Cam’s father at a rock show. (He and I are both avid music junkies.) It was heartbreaking to see this guy suddenly on MSNBC talking about the shooting and also inspiring to see his son take the mantle as an outspoken activist.
Both Cam and his brother were in school that day and the father, Jeff Kasky, was suddenly on tv talking about how the two boys were handled by the traumatized but effective school staff. It made the shooting so much less removed for me, even though I was viewing the news in California.
I only know Cam for his public appearances (as the vast majority of people do) and because of the show he's currently co-hosting. It was quite striking to hear him being so candid about the way certain agitators / personalities could be super smooth *to him* as a Parkland survivor.
I have never met Cam or his brother but worked an annual event alongside his father for a number of years and always found him good natured, thoughtful, and enjoyable with a healthy but not mean spirited sarcastic streak. We get along well when we see one another and I’d bet he’s a great father.
From 09 to about 2017 I used to mix in the young pundit circle in DC and the ones on the right were oddly better company than the kids who worked at CAP.
But there’s only so many rooftop parties you can go to with warmongers before you start daydreaming about pushing one off the edge.
in hindsight I have at least one stark regret
My wife still reminds me of the conflicted expression on my face when I learned that one particularly reprehensible guy was also a big Porsche fan.
I feel like Porsche, taken as a whole, is too broad/common an interest to separate "guys like me" from "guys I don't like". Rest easy knowing that that guy probably doesn't fully appreciate the 959
He owned a really nice 993. :(
I saw an article on the cars Trump had owned, more interesting than I would have guessed, and miles were put on them. The most relatable thing I've ever seen about him. No idea who picked them, or who drove them, just public records, so he might not have been involved.
Ever since I saw his Diablo being auctioned I’ve been saying that car will win Pebble Beach 30 years from now. They love their Nazi cars at Pebble.
True enough, though I'll bet it's a very different world in 30 years.
I fucking hope so.
I'm not sure this is so odd when you consider that, unlike their leftwing peers, they can be carefree because they don't have to (and indeed can't) worry about anyone or anything. Except, as it turns out, armed nihilists inspired by their fellow pundits.
narcissistic abusers are notoriously charming!!! they can fool everyone!!! they use empathy to convey their lies & manipulations most effectively, so people FEEL they are authentic & genuine.
That’s partly why so many in the media are reacting the way they did, because they’d met the guy and he was nice to them
absolutely.
Strong possibility, yes.
That and he’s a class compatriot. School shootings, well that’s a shame but they’re a statistic of anybodies. Charlie Kirk is One of Them whether it’s a media elite or a politician. He was in the club and a wake up call that they’re at risk too
The language has varied, but the general idea has been stated quite openly by - any person hosting a podcast / vodcast. Even those who don't habitually go on tour for big live events.
There was a leftish debate guy on TikTok that wept and lost a looooooooooooot of fans
Something similar was often said about Trump, especially before 2021
Absolutely! Being charismatic and likable in person is the secret sauce for politics
Fuentes, meanwhile, lives with his mom and maced someone who rang his doorbell in the face once.
Lol. But yeah, this is how you know that unlike Charlie, he doesn’t have serious political ambitions. Being king of the maladjusted edgelords is really his only goal.
I don't honestly know--he did dine with Trump that time. But, even as king of the maladjusted edgelords, Kirk had definitely stolen his crown. he had to go.
Agree, and even if it wasn’t consciously Fuentes’s personal plan, that’s the energy of that whole movement. It’s pretty anarchic. If Nick started getting too far into the inside of things they’d probably ice him too.
This is super work. He absolutely was the next in line. Vance has all the charm of a countertop, and couldn't carry the movement. Kirk helped JD get his current job, and would have ridden that relationship past him at some point.
Yes and apologies to countertops.
People completely misunderstand the role of $. Generally speaking, $ flows to people w/ a message $ likes. $ doesn’t create the message, it only platforms it. Sometimes it totally fails (Jeb! 2016.) And when you platform a ‘narcissistic, true believer’, $ control is always a tenuous illusion.
To add a little more context, my uncle was an MD w/ $20-30m. He sat on an industry supported board in the 70s & 80s which ridiculed concerns re: DDT, Dioxins & global warming. It would be nicer to say he was paid off, but the reality is that he had shit views well before industry platformed him.
I sure fucking hope you’re right!
I don't think Tim Pool could win an election for dogcatcher
He'd say something weird like, "Unlike my leftist opponent, I would never derive sexual gratification from all the dog strangling." And then get red and mad online when people point out that's not what dogcatchers do.
Especially, God forbid, if he had to take off the beanie for a debate or press photo
I think you're right, and it'd always been on the periphery of my awareness of how big a deal he was, but like, I never stepped into those circles, always looked from the outside in, so I only have the haziest awareness of the infighting.
Didn't Loomer put the hit out on Chuckles for the Epstein files thing a while ago too?
Hanania just makes my skin crawl in a very specific way. And your statements certainly mesh with what he was saying the other day.
40 hours ago, I wrote a correct prediction, followed by a metaphor which you have just explained better than I could. bsky.app/profile/john...
What shocks me is Thiel and Vance haven't tried
Mr. Antichrist and trans aren't going TRANS enough because they lack creativity.
Neither of them can code switch well enough between all three of those things and they may be self-aware enough to know that.
Thiel doesn't want to be the leader, he wants the leader to do what he tells him to. Vance is just woefully brimming with inauthenticity that he can't code switch because nobody believes that he believes any of it. He's a toady.
JD Vance wants to be Charlie Kirk so bad it is physically painful to watch
The pall-bearer bit loading him onto Air Force 2 was almost too much. Like goddamn JD, have at least a little self-respect, you're the Vice President!
but he is just so very bad at it which is great!
like maybe if Vance's career goes differently and he has time to develop as a public presence, whitewash his sketchier associations, etc, maybe he DOES become a real threat.
But he accidentally fell ass-backwards into the vice presidency while he's still a thirty-something repellent dork who tries to be earnest and affable but has a nasty streak he can't hide. And now America hates him. A lot! It's a happy ending, really.
I don't think he ever had a shot. He's always been so to his bones desperate to seek the approval of others, such a vessel of emptiness that he could never foster the charisma needed to charm people. Having the endless backing of capital can get you the VP, but it can't maintain a movement.
Yeah. I was kinda giving his best-case scenario. Really if he stays in the Senate he’s just a Ted Cruz type. Very Smart Little Boy whom everybody hates. Cruz was never gonna be president either.
He's very Cruz-ian. I've made that comparison a lot. Vance is a lot more boy-ish which helps him, but still the same category of hate-able to everyone.
Thiel is smart enough to know his views are wildly unpopular and so he works through puppets like Vance. Vance's problem is that he's so deeply unlikable and devoid of a sense of self that everyone just inherently wants to give him a swirly.
Thanks for the detail here. I just said to my son that this was probably related to the Epstein files.
coda, more than a correction: bsky.app/profile/did:...
@skyview.social unroll please this thread on Kirk being stochiastic-killed by Fuentes for not yielding on Epstein.
Can I share this elsewhere? It's really good and helpful and a reminder that all the best journalism for my purposes is done informally or in small newsletters and podcasts these days.
p.s. directly below your excellent thread in my feed:
Absolutely! If I'm writing stuff on here it's because I'd like it to be helpful to other people. OR I am howling at the moon. Honestly a lot more of the latter than the former but this thread was definitely the former! =D
Very helpful to this civilian normie who doesn't want to know more but also does, or at least wants to "understand" what's going on! Thank you!
Messaged you.... More thanks.
I follow you on fb but am can't be one of your friends on fb. Therefore I'm taking this opportunity to say that I've been enjoying reading your material for a few months now and am really glad that I've found you! Thanks for your work, Rebecca, to help save our precious democracy.
Holy moly and thank you for going down the rabbit hole for the rest of us
Thanks for sharing this! Can't wait for it to be a @joshjohnsoncomedy.bsky.social hour in a couple months.
Your theory certainly explains why JD Vance is in deep mourning, enough to fly Kirk's body in a military jet and have military dress uniformed pallbearers. [Kirk never served in any military of which I am aware.] Just another self-promoting Christofascist going for the $$.
How do you incorporate Fuentes antagonising Alex Jones on InfoWars though over Alex's defence of Trump's handling of Epstein? Fuentes is really explicitly against Trump on Jones show, they've been arguing it for a good couple of weeks; is it just posturing on IW?
For reference the @knowledgefight.bsky.social gents have covered Fuentes' recent appearances on IW over the past month.
We want to offer you a Netflix deal, 2-3 seasons
Ok I get Groyper Wars now www.newsweek.com/groyper-char...
Further recommended reading choices: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperre... www.thenerdreich.com washingtonspectator.org www.instituteofunreality.com nafoforum.org apnews.com/article/russ... pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC... pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC...
This is brilliant. I saw it because of @rebeccasolnit.bsky.social request to share. I hope you will write it in an essay where it can reach far beyond Bluesky. While you are at it please explain Groyper Wars for us non-cognoscenti
Kirk was an absolute "kingmaker" for lack of a better phrase. I doubt he could unify a coalition. Just as Vance is seen as this future as well, but they are (obviously) not as in control of the world as they think they are.
@skyview.social unroll please
@unroll.skywriter.blue unroll please
Excellent thread, thanks. When I saw this, I thought: Ah. Let's try not to read into this too much – but it sure is interesting for the people who know the context.
Only one of Kirk or Fuentes could fit the frame of a 21st century William F Buckley – in his presentation as a moderating force or in his practice as an accelerant.
This is super interesting! Thank you! Please @unroll.skywriter.blue
The thread as a shareable webpage: https://skywriter.blue/pages/did:plc:dgnvlsiinly3i2waxoltdbyl/post/3lynns5iuu22f.
“Code-switching” is a great way to describe this talent that the disingenuous have culturally appropriated from POC. If you don’t know the term, it describes how Black or Hispanic people will use their “white voice” in mixed professional formal settings where speaking naturally would threaten ofays.
& his code switching abilities is why you have so many elite pundits declaring Kirk did politics “the right way”
”Ofay” is a pejorative term that some Black people used for white people ca. 1960s-70s, I assume because it’s Pig Latin for “foe.” I used it because it takes up 1 less character than “whitey.” If you appreciate my glossary style, I could do Pig Latin next.
This is a really helpful & insightful thread thank you.
+1✔️
This cast a light on a tangle of stuff that truly didn’t make sense for me so thank you. Invaluable.
I hope you're right, because that will mean the movement managed to sabotage not only itself, but the whole MAGA bloc, and all due to being full of egotistical assholes trying to outdo each other.
Andy Ngo standing in the corner wondering why no one's asking him to step into the limelight...
I'm still confident the moneymen have someone they're keeping tabs on and possibly "grooming" for a shot at the spotlight. Or there's someone inside CPUSA who we don't know about who can carry the tiki torch of hate But these personas take time to build. You can't DC universe this.
as others have said... *will* the space be filled? sure. will it be filled in a way that lets the conservative machine execute as competently as it has been? nope
Absolutely agree.
In general, people think this is a lot easier than it is. Look at the transition from Carlson to Watters. Watters, while still awful, doesn't have nearly the clout Carlson had.
This is a really solid comparison. I honestly had never been entirely sure if the new Conservative Talking Heads were less of a Big Deal than the old Conservative Talking Heads or if I'm just out of the loop because I'm (deliberately) paying less attention. Nice to know it IS a diminishing thing.
And that was on Fox, where you literally could just give someone else Carlson's slot! Kirk's position in the fascist firmament is way harder to replicate.
It appears that his wife is planning to carry the torch for Turning Point USA. www.youtube.com/live/8Hi_npu...
Crowder, Shapiro, and Jones are making moves, too. But frankly, he didn’t have an office or a time slot, he had a talent. If someone wants his spot in the firmament, they’re going to have to replicate his talent.
Charlie Kirk’s widow will control Turning Point USA which occupies a particular niche. She’ll just hire bunch of “debate me” bros and see which ones survive in the ring. press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/bo...
Kirk’s schtick relied heavily upon young people responding as though, “he’s one of us!” He was on the verge of aging out, and he didn’t appear to have a succession plan. His death doesn’t leave a power vacuum as much as it creates a market opportunity for several *young* grifters.
I don’t think power vacuums and grifting opportunities are really all that distinct, lol
Fair point.
But TPUSA only held that niche (and it was an important one!) because it had proven itself more effective than the others (effective at WHAT we’ll leave for another day). It will have to prove its effectiveness again.
Students of Max Weber will recognize that the institution of Turning Point USA might not necessarily need to prove anything; they have substantial resources and the role played by Charlie Kirk can now be commodified. They will manufacture new ones assembly line style.
That’s exactly what we said when Tucker went down, (and before him, Bill O’Reilly), but the reality is clear successors to them never developed and the “commodification” and “market opportunity” you speak of just lead to fragmentation.
Do you think Brian Killmead will survive at Fox after his disturbingly specific suggestion that homeless people be murdered by “involuntary injection”?
So, you're saying we might have caught a lucky break?
Too bad he’s dead then, oh well!
we'll see... the rubes are pretty stupid, the money is fucking insane and the motivation is sky high to find a mediocre white guy who can speak with different, but very similar groups of jizzstains while keeping a small number of whopping lies straight - not hard
So it’s not that he’s irreplaceable because of some inherent talent, he’s irreplaceable because of the experience he’s gained cannot be directly taught, and the situations that form that experience are rare. He was personally mentored by Montgomery for this, and now they’re both gone.
Being able to code-switch is extremely difficult, and can’t be taught, and the people who do it have no idea how to even begin to teach it. It comes from being embedded in two different cultures and learning how to explain one to the other, and it’s hard.
The communication you're describing doesn't seem to match the definitions and discussion about "code switching" that I've seen before, although it is a complex topic, and definitions of "code switching" include some different things with some overlap. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-sw...
When you say "the situations that form that experience are rare", do you have any examples? Separately, do you know anything about Montgomery mentoring Kirk with this, or any other experiences that might have contributed to Kirk's skill with it?
I will admit I haven’t looked up the formal definition of code-switching before, and it looks like people here were using it informally? But people are using it basically to say that genuinely being able to talk in multiple cultural contexts is difficult, often looks like the fellow kids meme
I hope these questions aren't rude. The topic interests me quite a bit.
Nah you’re fine
Social media incentives make this even harder. You can be quite successful by jumping into a silo.
it's hard for folks who've never needed to, but a LOT of folks are great at code switching because their lives required learning to do it effectively to avoid catastrophe... admittedly that group skews HARD towards minority/disadvantaged folks who probably don't want to be Charlie Kirk, but...
I’ve been told my whole life that I “could talk to anybody”, and only recently have I learned that it’s saying I “code switch.” I have no idea how to explain what I do, and I wasn’t even consciously aware that it was a thing I did.
(I’m a little self-conscious here that I described the thing I unconsciously do as “extremely difficult”, the difficulty is in learning/being taught how to do it)
it's definitely impossible for some folks... but not for others
Yes, if you had to move between mutliple groups of people who speak/communicate differently in your life, you figure it out or you withdraw from them. I'm not sure I'd call every bit of commuicationg tailored to different groups "code switching" but if you have empathy, you can learn...
of course, having empathy and wanting to be the next Charlie Kirk or things that are pretty much mutually exclusive
Well, it's not that I don't hope you're right
It’ll be extremely hard to replace him, if not impossible. But the gap that he left behind will be filled, just with something differently shaped.
And fwiw, this is not a defense of Kirk or saying he was some genius lol. He played with fire and got burned.
Should've become the flame then he would be doing the burning!
I am less optimistic about his ability to be replaced, but it may have none the less brought us time.
So one thing Kirk could do that will be hard to replace was his ability to be affable to the Religious Right, who are extremely racist but care about looking respectable. This it’s important because this is where the money is; Kirk had a lot more money at his disposal than the other groups.
TP USA raised a lot of money (and spent a lot of money) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning...
Fundraising is about relationships, and those are personal in a way that will be hard to replicate
He will be replaced, this is not the end of the movement, but this is a major setback
I hope you're right.
oh i'm sure there'll be any *number* of tryhards milling about the space in Kirk's wake. they're not going to be *him*, and everyone's going to know it. this was, like, the RFK getting shot of the right-wing hyper-online neo-nazi clade. he was their future.
One lesson from the past two decades should be that actual, real-life charisma is insanely powerful but very rare. Obama took over the Democratic party in like four years and we've been struggling to find someone like him since. Trump took over the Republicans despite all the power hating him.
Dude. Charlie Kirk had the charisma of brussel sprouts.
There's so many people with big followings that I think are absolute incoherent morons that I cannot trust my personal judgement on these things anymore. A lot of people seemed to like him, that's close enough for me.
the other thing is that Kirk performed VERY different roles for different audiences. i've seen footage of him one-on-one with a friendly / curious audience and the man actually *did* have charm; his public Debate Me Bro persona was deliberately offputting & it's the only one MOST of us ever saw
Tucker Carlson, until only recently, pulled off the same trick.
I figured it was something like that when I saw the photo of him with Trump and RFK Jr. He had showered and washed his face until it was shiny. He was wearing a good suit. He was smiling brightly. Those are important traits to evangelicals.
Poor little Nicky Fuentes
wow... he could seem human in front of adoring fans in an adulatory setting... do you want to dig the hole a little deeper before you stick the bar in it? that's NOT a description of a guy with charisma... it's a barely functional narcissist managing to pass
your judgement seems sound, honestly...
It’s like replacing the frontman in your band. Unless you’re AC/DC it probably won’t work.
it works for groups like "The Temptations"... and in this case is the fan base more like a rock band's or a label inspired brand?
I hope so. But when RFK Jr. was shot, there wasn't money to coalesce behind a single replacement.
thanks for the checkpoint
This is, btw, why i was never "celebrating", as the accusations ran- i was *relieved*.
yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
So it sounds like you're saying the Conservative Billionaires put all their egg in one basket, and then another conservative broke that egg?
There are a lot of grifters out there, a lot of whom are quite good at it and make a lot of money telling billionaires and the right wing mob exactly what they want to hear. But there aren't many that can get Ezra Klein to give them a posthumous blowjob in the Times.
This feels to me like it's part of the balkanization of the unraveling of the Court of the Mad Emperor. bsky.app/profile/jess... Various factional groups vie for the musical chairs and the role of Heir Apparent, and the knives come out as they fight for legitimacy. +
In the case of Kirk vs. Fuentes, Fuentes' side is the True Believers, the total loyalists. But to the mad emperor, the total loyalist is only good because he needs to kill or be killed at the emperor's command, for any reason or no reason at all. +
By positioning himself as the reformer who was going to topple the corrupt emperor, Kirk became a threat to the true believers, and they prove their total loyalty by being willing to do anything to protect the emperor. These power moves play out further as the court (and emperor) disintegrates.
Hanania seems to hate the low class magas more than he does non white people. I doubt he's going that direction
lol yup if anything Hanania has been libbing out (which i predicted as his ultimate path, like, a decade ago lol. it'd piss him off SO MUCH to know that)
Hanania is to the left of the NYTimes on this issue 💀💀
it's, uh, it's EXTREMELY funny to me, as someone who literally beefed with him YEARS ago and then got bored and decided to wait and let him figure it all out lol
Oop nvm I’m being told he was just executed again by the Malaysian government
Yep. Plus, authoritarians by their very nature need a Prime, an Alpha, someone they can follow, who will tell them how to think. They are not easy to replace
The Right has always used Fear to grab their following and when they get afraid enough they lose control of their wits and cling to some Big Daddy figure who will claim "only I can fix it".
The ensuing power vacuum is going to make things pretty chaotic for a while. Even if somebody immediately steps in to fill it, there’s no guarantee the Hitler Youth Lite are going to respect/follow the new guy as unquestioningly as the original guy.
Given that a lot of the younger adherents are nostalgia-poisoned nerds and Gamers™️, “They Changed It So It Sucks” Syndrome will probably factor in here. Their own reactionary tendencies coming back to bite them by making them inflexible toddlers who can’t handle change or put their feelings aside.
Jesus Christ, I hate that I know what all of the words in this thread mean.
Excellent thread. I have two mea culpas: 1. I thought it’d be Vance who shivved Trump once it was perceived he’d outlived his usefulness busy using Epstein against him 2. If the Kirk-Fuentes rift is true/real then I apologize for saying this is not Night of the Long Knives w/ Kirk as Rohm
I think Vance will/would have no hesitation about shivving Trump. What he lacks is the personal power base to get the job done.
Exactly. He also has to walk a very fine line on this bc MAGA & even more so the groypers can & will easily turn on him simply for the fact he has a non-white wife & kids. The coalition of people he has to pull and keep together to remain in power is very delicate.
i've said this before, but charlie kirk was who jd vance desperately wishes he were to a point that's physically painful to watch and, i mean, gosh, maybe he's rethinking that this week! love that for him. love that for all of us.
I think your first point is still not wrong, really. Vance would let someone else do the actual shivving but he would ally with them on it (secretly, until the deed is done, then overtly once Tr*mp’s out of the way)
The Koch brothers money should have been used as tax payer money
The Koch brothers money should have been used as tax payer money
I wasted my teen years on imageboards and I desperately want people to understand that neo-Nazis and the alt right are actually like 20 personality cults in a trench coat and will absolutely engage in inter-faction violence over sleights nobody on the outside could ever understand.
That's one reason the Unite The Right event was so hideous. It legitimized their little factions as part of the GOP, and set up lines of communication btw them. Talia Lavin has tracked these chuds and does a good job of exposing their internicene fights.
genuinely one of the most important follows on here, yeah.
Lavin and Amanda Moore have been on this beat, extraordinarily competently, for a really long time (and Moore cautioning *against* certainty that the guy is a groyper and pointing out nuance in the semiotics is part of why I'm being more cautious myself even after my thread)
Because I took a nap and woke up to like 210 notifications, here's an anecdote for levity: There is a legitimate schism between Esoteric Hitlerists who believe Hitler became a heel for the sake of hiding dangerous knowledge (hollow earth etc) and actual Neo Nazis who simply think fascism is good.
Esoteric Hitlerists is a phrase i really never thought I would encounter on this earth in 2025....
Stuff like that is why people on the alt right can accuse others of fascism while still being fascists. Nazism is a moving target, being at once a political ideology, an aesthetic, a thing invoked ironically to scare "da libs," a failed state, and a utopian society depending on which faction you ask
Put simply, kids like the shooter never stood a chance. If you have fascist sympathies, there's some weird offshoot made just for you, but this also means it's hard for them to meaningfully coalesce beyond big vague marches where nobody asks deep questions about why you like the moustache man.
If you want to see a knife fight, ask whether Slavic people are white, or whether it is Race Science or Cultural Darwinism that separated whites from everyone else. The most seemingly inconsequential deviations from enforced ideology makes you an existential threat to the group.
sounds like a lot like the history of Christianity. I'm sure there's no connection though.
I mean they still can’t agree on if Italians are white - even after Italian Americans propped up Christopher Columbus and his racism to say, we are like you…see?
exactly. it's one of the true defining features of fascism: a constant hate for anyone who isn't in the "in group." and if you don't have an "in group," you find one.
Well, see, Genoa is basically Switzerland, Sicily is part of Africa, therefore Cuomo is genetically a criminal, just look at the shape of his skull, it’s why Harlem has gone cuomosexual, and goddamn it, irony poisoning makes it impossible to make this actually funny, doesn’t it?
Pretty muchhhhhhh
If the culture that surrounds you is hierarchical, from homes, institutions to govs, you’re more susceptible to enter into (& not know how to extricate) groups that depend on “othering” (eliminating an everchanging (definition of) other, have a scapegoat in fam) the systems reinforce each other.
Legitimately said the other day that the new right is too confident they won that they can cannabalize MAGA like it did the old GOP
Long story short, Nazis ate Nazis. Then, for some reason, Republican voters got mad at... Democrats
This is fascinating. I hope you’re right, and - even more - I hope Kirk’s band of followers also reach this conclusion.
#THIS !!! the consolidation & usurpation of the unpopular extremist factions to create a monster that scares away as many voters as it can withstand on a ballot. they're all lying all around & using each other & #US
The code switching comment is very helpful. I can't or don't want to see a lot of these details but this makes so much sense of the internecine warfare.
I didn't realize this about him until I spent part of my afternoon yesterday unfollowing quilters on Instagram for posting about what a lovely young man he was. Some were small businesses who kept politics to themselves all the way through the election and since, but they had to talk about this
Kirk was good at giving perception he wanted discourse, but if you watch him, he opened with genial look or smile along with question but then immediately shut down the answer to swing immediately in to his MAGA propaganda. His ‘let’s discuss’ was total bullshit. But he was good at it.
mmmhmm! and, I mean, that's a performance for a very specific audience that I could write an entire LONG essay about if I wanted to, and it's a performance he was *exceptionally* good at, and it was good at convincing young disaffected white guys that he was cool and strong.
Would read that essay immediately
I don’t think it was just the disaffected guys he was good with, there were enough young women in his audience too. Kirk had replaced their parents preachers those kids were no longer listening to.
