pulling the full text over so that it can be admired in all its glory by those who are accountless cremieux and hanania were both originally scott stans, coincidentally
pulling the full text over so that it can be admired in all its glory by those who are accountless cremieux and hanania were both originally scott stans, coincidentally
Federal law that censors their names for any users within an hour of them waking up
oh boy I missed you originally posting this. good lord if I wasnt already thoroughly done with Scott, that response to Gusev would have done it.
i am definitely trying to keep all the receipts together for a reason, i realized my previous "lol fucking scott" stuff ended up being redundant and made it hard to drive the point home
The vibes have been rancid from the beginning, it was very frustrating trying to get people to see this in like 2013
my strong feeling is that any particular community norm around communication is abusable. if you bar outright insults you just allow the gish gallop and the just-asking-questions as forms of aggression. all moderation requires judgement, and people saying they are just enforcing rules are lying
it is noteworthy, also, that this has been going on for over a decade now. this is not a difficult to spot pattern. basically some views (ie, Scott's) get a lot more leeway and shielding than other views (ie, anyone who disagrees with Scott's view too much) bsky.app/profile/valk...
eg, " in conclusion, this is obviously pseudocientific propaganda, and it is so bad that nobody should respect you or anything you say ever again. you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of statistics or even the concept of empiricism." almost certainly over the line
you have to admire the level of art that went into saying it indirectly, though. it's an art form. he is very good at it bsky.app/profile/sent...
posting absolute pseudoscientific trash repeatedly: not bannable saying "this is absolute trash": probably bannable
some emails from 2014 which really raise the question: is it really a coincidence that you're super cozy with various neoreactionaries on your blog
necroing thread to attach this part. i guess this is now a "why i see scott primarily as a neoreactionary ideologue with a progressive aesthetic" megathread bsky.app/profile/mutu...
my "reading scott's leaked emails closely" thread bsky.app/profile/segy...
rationalwiki archive in case it changes or goes away later. archive.is/202506121945...
"jewish racial superiority" blog posts one: slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/t... two: slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/29/f... three: slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/30/h... four: www.astralcodexten.com/p/contra-smi...
How has rationalwiki avoided going off summer ideological deep end for so long?
Posting this just in case you haven't seen it, I think it's a pretty good analysis of Alexander's rhetorical strategies.
def belongs in the thread in its entirety, thx
I wonder how many people who read him like reading those long winded cooking blogs before you get to the recipe. There’s a small recipe of something (might not be tasty) inside a massive amount of tangentially related nonsense.
the digressions are kind of the point, they're all interesting things when he's not being too defensive. and he can hide the main point anywhere in there
I mean this is the pretty straightforward implication of the leaked emails + that whole cohort's obsession with Leo Strauss right?
yes. i mostly like aggregating examples because it demonstrates that it's a sort of systemic problem and not a slant he sometimes injects, tbh. it is absolutely pervasive in his writing
I have read all of this, but also all you need is the last sentence “the garbage doesn’t matter because I can tune it out.” Scott Alexander, and a lot of people who remain on x dot com the social networking service, believe this (incorrectly, in my opinion) to be true of themselves.
Yes but also the NRxers taught him lots of interesting world war 2 facts, he just tuned out the bad ones
the main fact was apparently "churchhill should have allied with hitler" after you follow the sourcing
That's a little unfair. You're allowed to very bloodlessly provide extensive citations as to why it's trash while carefully tiptoeing around implying any bad faith on the part of the trash poster, after which you will be shouted down by people engaging in unambiguously non-bannable behavior.
yeah, i am forbidden from having long-term memory or from drawing conclusions about the person themselves or their process for choosing information to post
I remain embarrassed that it took me as long as it did to notice, but the "as long as it did" I'm embarrassed by is like three or four months and meanwhile some of these clowns are a decade into performing the same ritual argument verbatim every week or two.
look can you really adjust your credence for A given B? who's to say
All words are exclusively in a vacuum
damn it you beat me to it
It's a bog standard (if characteristically verbose) restatement of the paradox of tolerance. Absolutely unimpeachable progressive logic, so long as you're not allowed to interrogate too deeply into which politely stated views are and aren't antisocial crank bullshit.
"I think flinging insults at interlocutors is a different kind of violation than positing ethnic genetic differences" counts as "indirect"??? That was the point I went
they're just positing it. it's a totally harmless postulate. etc. yes, this is relatively indirect
it’s interesting, this was in 2018 so maybe they’ve since fallen out but this person at least at one point was heavily socially connected with a certain former vox writer who now works at the argument
no she was still defending him early this year. other than being nice to him specifically she seems fine to me.
I cannot imagine willingly interacting with those tedious racist dorks.
I would rather attack my own knees with a hammer than navigate Siskand's ranking of what kinds of rank bigotry are and are not subjects for civil debate.
and this too filters who is there
"The left makes bad counterarguments" also gets *way* too much evidentiary weight in those circles; they've been citing that Richard Lynn "national IQ" meta-analysis for years and feeling shored up by seeing ...
see also nathan robinson's response to scott from back in the day and him being incredibly selective about which voices on the left he chooses to engage with www.currentaffairs.org/news/2018/03...
Peak Nathan Robinson moment tbh
A fun project that I don’t have time for would be to read like 100% of Classic Scott (probably what, 2014-2020?) count all of the figures he cites, quotes, names, and then figure out if any of them are anything other than white.
things that an llm can plausibly automate much or all of the work of for 200 alex
Titotal did something like this for his book reviews. titotal.substack.com/p/the-walled...
Welp
Shoutout to Titotal
when hes good hes good
...weak-sauce counters along the lines of "there's no such thing as intelligence" or "all tests are culture-biased" without ever digging in and noticing stuff like "clinical sample with malaria"
there are some actually-good refutations of it floating around now, but I don't recall seeing anything that really dug in until the last few years - the nazis have had a long time to propagandize in those circles
scott managed to refrain from outright endorsing lynn until this year i think. his people love lynn but he personally knew to keep his hands clean. i assume he's totally audience captured now tbh
i also really like the more general arguments because they are, well, more general. if someone cites lynn they're a crank idiot, period. if someone goes digging through The Bell Curve and decides to defend literally every thing said in that book, the general principles are required
him making that endorsement post directly caused my break with rationalism lmao
i remember this and it left a strong impression on me
yeah - the whole atittude toward it is weirdly anti-scientific and incurious; "this entire nation is, on average, clinically mentally retarded" is an outrageous claim which you should be seeking much more data to either refute or investigate the cause of, and instead they lean on crap studies with..
...obvious problems and tiny sample sizes to support it and continue on their merry way acting like they treat it as a dogmatically established fact that they know and the terrible liberals are ignorant of
it's such incredibly obviously motivated reasoning, man
the Stat piece from last year was fantastic Journals should retract Richard Lynn's racist 'research' articles | STAT share.google/lfbUBaPqc1nn...
Yeah, that's one of the ones I was thinking of. Non-surveilled link: www.statnews.com/2024/06/20/r...
adversarial disciplines, baby!
"why can't we just write a set of well-defined community rules that forbid bad behavior while leaving a flourishing space for productive discussion?" *thousand yard stare* *takes a swig of something that is pretending to be whiskey but is actually oversteeped tea* "son, have you heard of 'war'?"
People get REALLY REALLY mad when you explain that moderation, like most things in life, does not function purely with bright-line rules and requires judgment and skill
🔥
it can also cause long term impacts to culture as a whole japan banning certain types of porn is why tentacles are such a big thing now banning certain forms of expression never bans the expression itself, it just mutates to take a different form
On forums and in (normal) social groups you simple ban or don't invite people with bad vibes. It works surprisingly well. Of course if you're suffering from the whole Geek Social Fallacy thing at scale suddenly you're the bad guy for saying somebody sucks shit.
coming around to your view on nuclear signposting bc i think Scott absolutely deserves every ounce of vitriol we could muster and i don’t even care if that has undesirable second order effects
yeah that is. uh. a significant part of who i am annoyed gets deference he does not deserve
and in fact: i think the rationalist default norm for politeness is to a large degree his norm, and was crafted specifically to work for him. so what is/isn't considered very impolite is just systematically skewed
yeah i think the rationalist community had seeds of this norm back when lesswrong started, but it also had the seeds of other norms, and scott bears most of the blame for this one being the one to take hold
oh hey haven't seen you in a bit i have gotten in like. four fights about this exact issue this week. sometimes being an asshole is good actually
yeah i've been offline mostly, trying to focus on self-care and actually doing things i almost dropped the sasha gusev links in a channel of rationalists lol
scott is high prestige and it is low prestige to disagree too strongly with scott. sad
indeed. my hesitation was more uncertainty about whether this would hurt the cause of trying to make the rationalists actually rational in the long run
it's a good cause and i respect it. it's just, ah, also depressing that scott's personal prestige is so much of the glue of rationalism
nothing says rationality like epistemic suicide by hero worship
it is one of a few core failure modes that just seem absolutely endemic
update: i made the post, had a spirited argument, and i think shifted folks marginally in my direction. progress!
hell yes
people seem persuadable these days, i might do a longform about this stuff at some point
would recommend!! rationalists do genuinely have the virtue of being willing to listen to people with ideas they consider strange. indeed, that's where this whole problem started
on reflection i think you’re right i think perhaps a default non-hostility and openness is good but there should be a social retaliation mechanism when people act in bad faith, not the endless ongoing deference that tpot/rat diaspora tends towards.
yeah. landed on more or less that. default be nice, etc. but T1 rudeness from Gusev's reply to scott ("Richard Lynn was right" type shit) is a significantly worse violation of politeness and charity norms than graphically insulting someone specific to their face and should be treated as such.
since i am looking at this again: i was thinking "yeah, tit for tat is required" but actually given the high cost of bad information i think it needs to be tit for tat on a relatively unforgiving schedule? and this is in practice what i do
people can be redeemed but it's like a year+ long moving average of quality with negative quality being upweighted a lot
Forgiving tit for tat *is* a dominant strategy
The one thing I really love about blue and Twitter WAY BACK is that you could be the moderator of your own shit and your entire justification could be FUCK YOU YOU'RE ANNOYING FUCK OFF.
This is going to sound like an insult, but it's not (well, not necessarily): when I read this shit, I feel like I'm in high school again
yeah uh i would rather ignore the entire clown show but it turns out it's important
of all the abysses to gaze into, why did i pick this one
What a low info-density. Only the last paragraph or two were needed.
oh that's a good observation. i think you could measure this to figure out when he's lying
A big clue is how much of the early text is loaded with nonspecific cliches about generic pandemonium and death threats, reasonable controlled discussion as the alternative and so on. It's junk food to set your mood correct for the last paras about the case at hand
He was a yapper even when I liked him the one time tbf but the placement is indicative
He's always like this, I don't think it says anything about whether he's lying. He has a knack for turning a thought that could be expressed in three 280-character tweets into a blog post of 5,000 words.
i do think he waxes way, way more poetic when he is refusing to state the point he is making directly
He does, but he also never makes a direct point, even when he says something random about statistics.
the questionable shit is near the end of the second 5,000 words and the closest he gets to a smoking gun is in the comments some of which he hastily deletes two weeks later lol
Lol the codex dude is fucking horrible. Gwern-esque levels of idiocy around IQ -- both are basically scientific racists.
for a guy who hates post modernism this dude sure talks in circles like them
he learned from the best
What’s crazy/hilarious is Lasker was too racist for even the SSC subreddit and was a driver of the creation of the even-more-of-a-cesspit /r/TheMotte
he then got banned from it. and then he got banned from their off-site migration after they left reddit. he was a one-man moderation nightmare
no matter how mask off you are allowed to go, he wants to take off like four extra masks. he prefers that you directly stare at his bare skull
“I think that flinging insults at interlocutors is a different kind of violation than positing ethnic genetic differences” - lol, this is always fun. the people whose ethnicities are posited as “different” will obviously be personally insulted!
we decide to simply not consider that
yooo I ain't readin all that
Mucho texto aside this reads like a guy who sees woke 2 and is severely coping with what’s to come
Jesus Christ. I really enjoyed his early writing, but haven't kept up for 5+ years, and I didn't realize how much he had fallen off
he used to hide this stuff better :)
Yeah, I really wonder whether going back to unsong now, as a not-so-oblivious twenty something, would be a very different experience
i haven't read it and have no idea, my experience archive diving his other stuff is that he starts out like 80/20 "just a pretty good blogger" vs "i am just asking questions about something that happens to be sort of reactionary-flavored"
a pile of sneerers spent like since 2013 tracking Scott's dog whistles for eight years, then in 2021 that email from 2014 leaked which was "HELL YES THE POINT OF SSC IS TO PROMOTE RACE SCIENCE AND NEOREACTION" and we were like, he just emailed it out
oh hey bro i was getting ready to put "go through the email line the line and explain what it literally seems to mean" on my todo list since people were saying they had seen it before and not read it carefully
you would believe how many centrists advocating an SSC article i showed that email that says "THE POINT OF SSC IS TO MAKE YOU MORE RACIST" and they'd go "well i liked *that* article" and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa fucking liberals
it's lke hipsters, nobody hates liberals like a liberal
By coincidentally, we mean "end up at the bar that doesn't kick them out the first time they make their views apparent"
in fairness cremieux did get kicked out, repeatedly. but he also made friends with a bunch of folk and they still sort of like him apparently
"Apparently", taken here in the sense of "it is apparent from the original lessonline 2025 featured invitee list" Removed after a bunch of other people raised a stink, but still.
I thought the Scott in question was James C and had a mini-heart attack
It's wild that essentially you can boil this whole speech down to "it's unreasonable to be even slightly uncivil to unrepentant racist eugenicists" and not a single word of that summary is exaggeration
Gusev's response [1] was worthwhile too: [1] nitter.net/SashaGusevPo...
Feel fucking embarrassed for ever thinking Alexander made some good points …
scott's a smart guy and some of his work is timeless. he's gotten dumber. he used to be much much more subtle about inserting his more unpleasant opinions
Do you believe his story about being completely unable to understand Calc 2? It’s really incongruous with all the fawning admiration of his genius.
having been on both ends of calc 2, i think it really just means he had a bad math background. if you're good at math and understand you're going to be memorizing chunks of formulas, you're fine. if you're not, you may die. traditional weeder course
tbh i am surprised anyone who struggled for real in calc 2 made it into medical school though
But also it’s a really strong data point that his IQ gang should look at and say: not a genius. (I’m not in the IQ gang.). That’s what I don’t get.
the beauty of iq is that as long as you cling to your iq your actual, proximate failures in the real world aren't real. and if your actual tested iq isn't high maybe it's measurement error because you clearly have the right genes. it's the ultimate cope
i'm sorry if you can't derive that shit on the fly, ngmi :P
that's just memorizing fewer, better formulae imho
(I'm actually kinda surprised scott struggled there; he never struck me as exactly a "good at math" person but certainly as "bright enough in general to handle basic shit")
I wonder if it's related to the mental block you run into with some programmer types on *continuous* math
it could be that but imho if you're tolerably-bright and, like, awake in school, calc 2 may be the first time you actually had to exert any effort in math whatsoever. like. you may technically have been an A math student but have never done anything deliberately before then
someone turning out to be a massive asshat does taint the less suspect takes too (common problem for sure)
I somehow think this is worse for online stuff. Might be in part a fallacy but feels like it is easier to separate something published as a book from whatever bad takes the author produces in other media or even later books (for example NN Taleb)
For the record: never about the race science shit! Before noticing that.
He did make some good points! A handful of original ones and a larger set repackaged into a format that was more readily accessible to a certain neurotype. He also used those good points to smuggle white supremacist talking points to an audience that likely wouldn't have otherwise sought them out.
Tbh my original feel on randomly bumbling onto slate star codex was ”there is a weird Smell to all of this but the guy makes some good points and Also he uses too many words so I feel embarrassed sharing it”
The two modal reactions are "everyone here is autistic (derogatory)" and "everyone here is autistic (laudatory), but oh no they're also all nazis".
now getting the idea that it was weaponized packaging, like some curious inverse of web scams tailored to only work on the most credulous people in existence
no you got it. the entire scott- and yud-o-verse both filter people, among other things, for tolerating their writing styles and their high-engagement people have a really particular psychological profile
i think rationalism having so many spinoff cults is multicausal
There are some leaked private emails where he's incredibly explicit about this, at least with regards to the crap Moldbug was writing at the time. That doesn't technically mean he was doing the same thing with race science but, c'mon, yes it does.
if it isn't these ones i'd enjoy seeing them, i have a collection in my brain of this stuff bsky.app/profile/segy...
Yeah, that's the one. Anecdotally the first time I ever heard of NRx was SSC's giant two parter telling me what in retrospect was a carefully chosen subset of the ways in which it was wrong, so it at least worked to disseminate the idea to one extra brain.
There are some interesting parallels here to our very own edgy-neurodiverse-bloglord-turned-politician Jussi Halla-Aho. Although his Scripta blog (famously quoted by Breivik) was explicitly open to racist stuff. Wikipedia entry has a whiff of Halla-aho apologism en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jussi_H...
Relatedly: someone could have a day job in cleaning out the traces of ”race realist” guys writing in Finnish and Finnish-adjacent wikipedia
have heard similar things about norway and sweden
Once Georges W Bush said "hey it is raining", and he was entirely correct
its so funny how they only have pretend intellectuals in the bay