I saw someone mention that a huge chunk of environmental microplastics come from tire dust (& tire dust has also been implicated in higher cancer rates). So they said the solution was to drive less, in lighter cars. Which is true. But most cars on the market rn are getting heavier due to batteries.
Maybe we should make people stop doing this.
Most cars are getting heavier because they're giant murder trucks and SUVs. They've got front grills that are taller than I am (an admittedly short 5' woman). Their tires cost something like $600 EACH and people STILL keep buying them. It's insanity.
Oh . . but how to feel superior to your peers.
This is just one of the many ways we really biffed it when it comes to electric cars. Daily driver electrics were never supposed to be heavier & more powerful than gas. And as bad as the heavy electric sedans are, most people are driving trucks. We were never supposed to make electric SUVs the norm.
At this point we need to put strict limits on car sizes imo, ban SUVs and restrict pickups to people who actually for real NEED a truck, but I can't see that happening when car companies and rich people would fight tooth and nail against it
I would love to see the purchase of SUVs and large pickups disincentivized at commuter cars. It’s awful that for so many years regulatory loopholes instead encouraged people to buy trucks as their commuter vehicles🥴
I'm on team "no more cars", but I don't think even something moderate like "limit cars to 90s/00s sizes" would be possible in the US short of a revolution/civil war, the culture and political system are just so fucked
One thing giving me a small amount of hope is that the new generation of car enthusiasts coming up seems to be into much smaller, less powerful “fun” cars as daily drivers. Part of this is affordability but part is also a rejection of the supersizing of US vehicles I think. Maybe change is afoot?
Could be, but even if the economics of SUVs are a losing battle I wouldn't be surprised if car companies just change the rules. Like the fossil industry vs wind
As a car guy I think it’s really awesome that you can get like 1000 ft lbs of torque and 600hp out of your sedan’s electric engine. As a person living in society I realize this is very bad, and the exact opposite direction that consumer electric cars were supposed to go in.
Btw the stat they gave re: tire dust was that it’s 15% of all microplastics. The other largest contributor was polyester clothing.
Since some folks are getting upset: none of the above is an argument against better electric vehicles. It’s pointing out some of the problems with the form in which the US is currently adopting/designing them. Nor is any of the above an argument against better public transit. So, ya know, chill.
Moments after posting the above exhortation to chill I had people accusing me of being a shill for big oil and for spreading “misinformation”🫠 Self proclaimed EV boosters do not know how to deal with even the most minor of critiques of their fave tech & it makes it real hard to talk to them.
"There is a real problem with waffles society needs to come together to address" Look at the shill for big pancake over here.
Every choice is a compromise with inherent trade-offs. Every technology has its strengths and weaknesses.
I don't think that you are looking at the whole EV global market. I agree with you on American's love of big cars. But the EV market globally is largely small cars. If they were available here, they would destroy the American auto industry.
Like you said, drive less & go EV, buy lighter private vehicles - and maybe drive less furiously. We also need to replace heavy commercial vehicles ...
What are tire manufacturers doing to lower their impact? What are transportation departments doing?
people learn that it's ok to critique one thing at a time and not fall for pancake/waffles challenge
You tried Nuance; it’s not very effective! I love my new EV, but I hate driving it in town because of the traffic (which yes, I’d be a part of), so instead I run errands by bike or on foot whenever possible. If we are to have cars etc in the centre, I’d rather have EVs to reduce exhaust emissions.
Same!
people were upset when we took their cigs they are ideologically addicted to plastic but we need to take it away as well
But also… it’s an argument for slowing down.
Range anxiety and fast fashion. They're going to bite us in the ass.
Personally, I blame leisure suits
Small penises and social insecurity
Time to start riding bicycles naked I guess
Sure - start.
Tire dust is also bad for salmon it seems... kingcounty.gov/en/dept/dnrp...
Problem is we want cars to be fun. Additional power and torque are damn-near free to implement in BEV vs ICE - and offset the handling compromises. 'Course we could reduce automotive dependency + implement traffic calming to inhibit these impulses. But political realities.
Agreed. Trying to remain optimistic on this issue, I think about Ann Greene’s research into how horses got really big right before they became obsolete as urban transportation.
When you're riding a bike and somebody in an electric car honks at you for being on the road you remember that there are a lot of folks buying electric cars for reasons other than environmental stewardship Did you happen to see this article? wapo.st/469R57q
I didn’t! Thanks!
There’s an electric Hummer I see around town sometimes. That’s a Venn diagram that I thought was just two circles that don’t touch, but I guess they overlap enough for that one dude.
Truly a cursèd vehicle
Electric SUVs are an abomination. It demonstrates the wrong implementation of technological improvements. Lighter car, better battery is the win-win, not some suburban electric tractor.
Range as the obsessive single stat as if all people need to drive huge distances daily.
Any research results yet on what effect microplastics are having? Creepy to learn they are everywhere (even between the neurons that are generating this sentence) but no clarity yet on impact yet. I'll hope for 'they help out life' but yeah I'd still have to bet against that outcome of course.
They cause inflammation and endocrine disruption in animals and humans which leads to health problems. They have also been linked to some cancers. Some studies have linked them to thyroid issues and also to cardiovascular disease. If you google pubmed you can find the studies.
I hate how this stuff is not just affecting humans who caused it, but is now in the bodies of everything from insects on up. :S
Even petrol (gas to you) and diesel cars are getting bigger. Heavier cars are more likely to kill people even at low speeds. We have a term for them in the UK: wankpanzers. Other terms are available, particularly relating to the drivers' likely deficiencies
I expect the extra weight due to batteries is far outstripped by the extra weight of US passenger vehicles becoming GINORMOUS. Either way, it definitely seems like registration fees should be determined by a vehicle's weight.
Not really. One, the batteries are extremely heavy. And two, the heavier the vehicle, the heavier the batteries, so electric passenger trucks are much heavier due to the batteries. I agree that a weight tax might be useful—I’d like to see such disincentives levied at the manufacturer level.
Yes, they'd probably be more effective—and politically feasible—at the manufacturing level, ala CAFE standards.
Yes the eTrucks curb weights are insane. The Ford lightning is over 6,000 lbs (F-150 is 4-6k). The Silverado EV is over 8,500 and can reach 9,000! The best solution to this is for all these dumb flat EV fees states are passing to be based on curb weight (and mileage too if we can).
I would add though that road damage caused by vehicle weight scales at the 4th power of weight. So yes EVs can cause more damage and we should work to make them lighter, but the vast majority of the damage you see to the roads is much larger commercial trucks: www.denenapoints.com/relationship...
Road use fees based on vehicle weight and mileage would be politically impossible for gas cars, but right wing anti EV sentiment makes them a possibility for EVs. And EVs can be light. My Bolt weighs 3,500 lbs basically the same as a Toyota Camry. As batteries improve a new version could be lighter.
My Bolt has a 66 kWh battery. The cells have 220 Wh/kg and with all the pack structure it drops to 135 Wh/kg to give a total pack weight of ~1,000 lbs. Solid state is already producing 375 Wh/kg batteries. They're more structural and temp resistant so a 270 Wh/kg pack seems very plausible.
Such a pack would shave 500 lbs off my Bolt, putting it in Honda Civic weight territory. For a 2,800 lb 215 kWh Silverado battery this tech could cut over 1000 lbs easily. The main issue is economics of it, but a weight fee adds economic incentive to lighten cars/trucks to spur this on.
Researchers have made cells that are over 700 wh/kg in a lab, so there's a possibility of saving even more weight years down the road. The holy grail is a structural battery, so the frame of the car itself is a battery. That basically adds zero weight, though repairs after a crash might be insane.
I could get behind a linear ton-mile rate for road tax. Yeah, OTR trucks cause orders of magnitude more damage. But lighter vehicles still demand roads. Simplicity with a degree of proportionality would be easier to roll out.
If folks were going to levy tax, it could be on the mean of the tare and permitted gross weight (allowing 2000kg or what the US version of that is as a minimum). Give a discount to people based on adding up the distance from their home to the nearest 3 farms.
Road wear increases as the 4th power of axle weight, so really to be fair costs should also increase as a 4th power right? Of course that would completely end road freight.
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“Daily driving” eh? Just a word from a different country: my daily (middle class, aging lady) travel is by public transport. Drive twice a week maybe? Public transport is a great thing to campaign for.
We definitely need lighter vehicles and to drive less. However, the other source of pollution is brake dust and EVs have a lower amount of brake dust as they use regenerative braking. My understanding is brake dust is worse than tire dust because it is smaller lighter & lighter so it travels further
Brake dust is really nasty stuff. As a proportion of environmental pollutants it’s also much smaller than tire dust. Anyway, none of what I said is an argument against electric vehicles, just an argument against massively heavy EVs that have been designed that way for all the wrong reasons.
However I often see tire dust as an argument against EVs rather than any push for lighter vehicles. In recent years there have been inventions to capture some of the tire & brake dust. I still think we should push for lighter vehicles but I do think eventually these will be mainstream even mandated
^ correct! EVs produce 83% less and there’s a direct correlation between more EVs a less PM2.5. More fossil fuel misinformation!
And also cars are getting bigger for some weird fashion reason that I hate.
That's true, but also EVs use regenerative braking, and EV drivers are incentivised to drive more efficiently. That means less aggressive acceleration and braking, which preserves both tyres and brakes longer than on ICE cars. EVs aren't perfect but they're still better than nothing.
And so much more than that with gas vehicles producing 600% more PM2.5!
I can personally attest to that.
Yes, the answer to automobiles destroying our society and environment is not better automobiles: while they’re helpful, what’s really needed is less dependence on the damn things. They bankrupt us!
Sounds like the time EVs will buy us in terms of our health (AQ improvement) and mitigating Climate Catastrophes, should provide the decades of time needed to transition away, or centuries in a country not doing it nationally, but state by state.
Unless one drives to work daily, taking Ubers and occasionally renting a car is much less expensive than owning a car. Few people actually think about how expensive cars are to operate.
I also find I'm getting better life out of my tires on the EVs than I did the diesels. And you know I track those expenses like a hawk. I'm actually getting 30-40k out of a set where before I'd get 25k at best. My mileage hasn't dropped (20-30k/annual). I don't buy special tires.
I got over 30k miles on the first set of tires for my Bolt. It is a lighter, less powerful EV though. We should have more like it.
Those seats tho...
Ha! I half agree. The 2020 seats are better than the 2017s and I've accepted them over 5 years. I hear the 2022 seats are way better, but I've never tried them.
I've only been in 2020 and earlier. I had to drive one to Rocky Mount and back and that was the only trip I needed to know I can't live with the car. The Kona feels small (I'm 6'3") but I can sit in its seats for 12 hours without complaint. That matters more than any other feature for me these days.
We're height twins! I don't think there's any car I could comfortably sit in for 12 hours, so I just accepted the Bolt. Good to hear the Kona is working for you, I think it actually gets better mi/kWh than Bolt on highways, but when I bought it cost like $5-10k more so I passed on it.
As soon as I can replace it with an EV6 GT-Line (because only that trim has the pop-out door handles), the Kona is gone. Bought during height of high used prices when in a pinch, it was not my first choice but a good choice. FYI: Kia makes interiors for tall/wide people, Hyundai builds the opposite.
Because people "NEED" 400 miles on tap at all times when 150 is more than sufficient to drive cross country. Address the psychological block and we could have lighter cars. But then fast chargers have their own air quality concerns (based on new data) that could be mitigated with cabinet design.
Not once you hit Kansas if you want any kind of margin. But even that implies that what’s needed is infrastructure more than range. Good thing Infrastructure Week is coming up soon!
A friend drove from NW Washington state to Chicago and back last year. He said there were places where he really had to research and plan ahead, sometimes making longer stops due to a lack of compatible fast chargers. Overall he said it worked out well.
I rode in the car for a bit. I'm 6'1" and there are many cars that I find uncomfortable. The Bolt was a nice ride. I didn't have a long distance test, but my friend (a hair shorter than me) said his cross country trip was comfortable.
EVs may even be more comfortable as the main competition today is in EV development.
For me it's about head room, leg room and good back support, regardless of how it's powered.
Absolutely!
Apps make long distance driving easier. And it gets easier every day.
Few need to do that + Salina to Hays is the single longest stretch along I-70 @ 97mi today. That's the only stretch ABRP says a 2022 Mini (114mi max range) might struggle with (w/out NACS adapter). But you said it: infrastructure. Better every day. (Here's my 204-mi range audi @ Pikes Peak in '21)
Range fear is valid. Fortunately, most new models are getting extended ranges without the proportional increases in weight.
Is there research into tire materials that shed less/shed something less harmful?
Auto manufacturers will create a market through propaganda to increase their profits. Hence, people driving $70k 4x4 pick-up trucks in cities as commuter vehicles. 90% of which will never actually be used to haul or tow anything. Only going off-road when they have to park on grass.
Absolutely, unless you are subject to peer pressure. Then you gotta have the best advertised vehicle on the market (and pay for it).
Stormwater runoff carries tire particles—and the toxic chemicals they contain—from city streets and highways to storm drains and fish habitat in creeks and estuaries like San Francisco Bay. Stormwater washes trillions of tire particles into the Bay each year.
Micro-particles are a health hazard that needs to be addressed urgently. Latest studies suggest that they are permanently lodged in mammal brains. But forget that with the current administration.
We could have a future where cars are regulated to be lighter. Cute little Kei sized EV's zipping around filling in the edge cases where amazing transit, bike lanes, and walkability don't cover a trip. But no, we're going all in with the fantasy that 6,000 pound EV trucks will save us.
You are right. Tired dust is a major under-reported souce of dust pollution. But smaller cars are the solution. Electric vehicles produce significantly less total pollution than ICE vehicles.
This is a huge part of why I'm opposed to electrifying our bus fleet.
Miata is always the answer
Regenerative breaking on EVs produces much less brake dust, however.
If all drivers of EVs used 1 pedal driving, tire dust would be significantly less than ICE vehicles. I have almost 8K miles on my Leaf. The ties look like new.
The research I have read suggests that EVs generate somewhat more tire dust. But, in this case, literally, YMMV. 😃
Absolutely.
Bumper car mode is not regen. When I hit the brakes in my EV it regens into the battery at up to 290 kW. It only applies the physical brakes if I press the brake pedal hard enough to decelerate faster than .4G. "One pedal" only exists because tesla didn't have the technical chops to blend braking.
Correct. Which is why annual car registration should be based on weight and miles driven.
Another fun one. Americans have spent 200 million in five years on vehicle wiring harness repair due to rodents. The plastic was replaced with a peanut flavored insulation. Resulting in 7 wiring harnesses in four years in my cars. Each one manufactured at a HIGHER cost to the environment.
not peanut flavored 😭
Yup! 40k in damage to three different vehicles in my house, so far.... I found two rabbits sitting on top of the engine of my brand new truck. That was 20k....
Sounds like this matters most in cities? and then the solution is improved mass transit?
The solution to this problem is to stop making heavier cars. Other things like improving urban mass transit and suburban trains throughout the nation would be great too. Both can, and should, happen.
It just occurred to me: all those things (including what I suggested) take years, but the recent NYC measures are fast: reducing space for cars, forcing slower speeds, and (hopefully) lowering or eliminating mass transit fares.
More safe public transport is what we need!
Sigh. insideevs.com/news/770035/...
Luckily there's development in that area also. press.pirelli.com/pirelli-firs...
More... www.upmbiochemicals.com/about-upm-bi...
Pro EV folk get a bit sniffy about the weight argument, intuitively I suspect they are heavier for their size compared to ICEs. The extra tyre particle production caused by using the impressive acceleration and concomitant braking (brake dust too) is also a factor against EV’s.
And let's not get started on the environmental impact of lithium mining... electric cars aren't as environmentally friendly as they keep trying to say they are.
Most people in Edinburgh don't own cars because they don't need them. Our electric trams and buses are reliable, clean, affordable, and quiet. We often produce all our electricity needs from renewables, so that helps too.
They are also quite slow. Often it is faster if you just walk.
Why ride at all if you can walk?
Mass transit- bus, train, … those are the cures that other countries use and love. When I lived in Brisbane (Australia) I did not need a car. I never missed it either. The government needs to make the investment but wont because Ford and Chevy pay too many campaign contributions #PedoPresident Greed