You're the one obsessed with punishment of the wicked no matter how many innocents get hurt so actually I'd charge that if anyone is a calvinist here, it's you.

right lmao they got what they wanted! Harris lost! Democrats were punished for genocide. and now we're all fucking hosed because it turns out you can't change the country entirely through 'organizing' but you can do it with control of the federal government bsky.app/profile/azer...

man I wish it were the case that Democrats were punished for genocide. Instead I think they were punished mostly for burrito taxi expensive

I think they got punished for the state of this country (runaway propaganda networks driving misinfo to low-attention voters, a scleric political process being unable to truly make things better, etc.) But that's been an ongoing process for decades, hard to assign blame...

The average American does not really care for foreign policy but the average dem voter does so bit of both tbh

what's your angle here?

I can absolutely understand people’s anger about Palestine, the US’s role in facilitating the genocide, and the way few in power were taking it seriously. Unfortunately losing power to a madman fascist kept the genocide but removed anything good the federal government did

That's not the voters fault, that's the Democrats fault for not listening to the voters. We can never be mad enough at Harris and the Dems.

I thought we wanted Harris to stop being a genocider and care about us. Or is the idea of a Democrat not being a genocider just unfathomable to you?

That's not what we wanted, you don't sound like a leftist at all

I'm genuinely loving this for them. At the end of the day, they know what they did to their own cause. Now I'm going to sit back and watch them get detained, disappeared, and deported. Like Miss Celie said, "The jail you planned for me is the one you're going to rot in."

Yeah, I voted in this election, but taking glee in having people who didn't vote being deported, etc DOES kind of make you a piece of shit. Like, I'm upset about the election turn out too, but wishing fascism on people makes you kind of a fucking fascist.

I don’t care. People being deported were put in harm’s way by members of their own community chasing white adjacency. Maybe those people will vote differently in the future. Or maybe not. It’s not on me.

So poc of trans people should be sent to concentration camps because they voted differently than you? Damn. It doesn't take very much for you to go full blown fascist. If you want to sign up for the GOP, just fucking say so.

This has nothing to do with trans people. That's a strawman. This is about how white adjacent POC chose to vote in ways that put members of their own community at risk. 50 percent of Latinos voted to hand members of their own community who couldn't vote over to fascists.

I UNDERSTAND THAT. And I SHARE YOUR FRUSTRATION and I am angry about it too. That doesn't make ALIGNING YOURSELF WITH FASCIST IDEAS LIKE DEPORTING PEOPLE magically fucking okay. Do you seriously not understand how gross that is? How thinking that doesn't make you any better than shitty republicans?

So you're a Nazi?

If that's how you define it.

Yeah, you seem to be eager for the Gestapo to commit Nazi acts. A pretty basic hurdle to clear towards not being called a Nazi, is to not support Nazi deportations.

I don't give a single fuck about any of these people. You can call me a Nazi all day every day and all it does is make me enjoy this more.

You're a Nazi. Live with it.

I'm fine with it. It's not like words mean anything with you people. Do we know when Khalil is getting deported? Do we have a date?

There's something wrong with you

@merovingians.bsky.social if I were you, having this blood-drunk sicko agreeing with me would give me pause for thought

Good Lord, what is this? Nextdoor?

Spoken like a Nazi

LOL! You people can't help yourselves.

You're revelling in the suffering of others under fascism because they wouldn't go along with your genocider You're a nazi

What? Call out Nazism?

You fascist piece of filth.

pretty damning the way "organizing" doesn't have wielding power as a goal. also they can't even organize lol, DSA can't balance a budget of course they don't move the democrats

Bernie fumbled 2020 and in response these people invented a massive conspiracy and refused to learn a single thing about the electorate. accelerationist libs were fucking paying attention

he just fumbled like a loser

The thing is, if Bernie had won in 2020 they would’ve hated him because he would have actually had to do things. And inevitably those things wouldn’t have been good enough for them. Theory is clean and easy to support but putting things into practice is messy.

If this was a year ago, I think I would wholeheartedly agree, but since the election I have seen comments and statements from Bernie that if any Democrat had said would get them absolutely shredded by the political left. I still generally like him, but he has lost a bit of his luster to me.

A similar thing is happening to AOC as she attempts to achieve things

“They.” “Them.” Plus you’re making up hypothetical situations to get mad at.

let's be fair, Bernie didn't fumble he was merc'd. but he went with it as usual.

none of you gave a solitary shit about the fully predictable harm of a second Trump administration until when people warned you. it's just infantile politics.

I love your broad sweeping statements… the you of 20yrs ago into Situationism was far more interesting. Smoked a little meth in grad school and read some of the edgier English philosophers (you don’t have a second language do ya kid). What actual real world organising have you done? Seriously.

you refused to be guilted and now you are like 'god liberals are such heartless monsters' shut the fuck up

Seriously… what real world, actually interacting with other human beings work have you done to further any political cause. Your thread sure makes it seem like it’s simple, we’re just some dumb fucks who haven’t figured it out…

A lot of this is best resolved by assuming the people in question think they have a God-given right to be the protagonists of any resistance activity, and if they aren't, it can't be 'true' resistance

This is what happens when you have Leninists so deracinated from their Leninism that they don't formally believe in a vanguard party, but automatically assume they are the vanguard as a matter of course It's the same thing evangelicals do with the Bible, probably because it's the same demographic

"I believe I am of the elect!" while manifestly failing to follow any of the practical tenets of the faith in question required to be so "I am the vanguard of the revolution!" while manifestly failing to engage in effectual revolutionary activity and pushing away possible allies

These are a lot of young people, raised in evangelical culture if not thought, who have rebelled against their parents without fully disentangling from the basic foundations of that movement Like New Atheists before them

And on top of that, you have leftist organizers and thinkers that have been in the fight for years, have honest critiques and actual strategies that may or may not involve electoral politics, but see this pointed out and think you're talking about them when no, it's the newbies

Someone either smarter or with more time than me needs to start writing about this phenomenon, as I've seen it across social media platforms

I mean, buddy, if you check my posting history, it's something I write about an unreasonable amount

still staring at this one because goddamn you nailed it

I can't take credit for the whole package of insights, but, yeah, it really does seem to be what's going on sometimes Found Lenin/found Jesus crossover, complete with the bare-minimum exposure to the foundational texts

Every opposition is CIA-backed and fake except for ours

what's happening is the chilling impact of viciously anti-Palestinian policy *domestically* which was a result/risk of Trump's re-election absolutely no one in the scene seemed to consider in terms of their positioning even though it was telegraphed as much as the tariffs bsky.app/profile/rand...

people saying it would be more productive organizing under Trump - not when you're running for your lives you idiots

maybe it would be if we got Trump I again but it was blatantly clear this was going to be Trump without any restraint and an administration as brain-poisoned and evil as he is

like at the end of the day fuck joe biden to hell for making it genuinely hard to *make* a harm reduction case for an ongoing genocide but he doesn't matter anymore

if you say you would rather the current situation than trying to move the Democratic party on Palestine you are a fucking liar or a psychopath

So what did you do to try to stop Biden from supporting genocide? What did you do to stop the Harris campaign from saying they would do the same as Biden?

right now we have a genocide escalating by the day and not a single lever of power to pull. even if we vacuumed all the zionism out of schumer and jeffries by magic they couldn't do anything. as someone who does care about Palestinians I hate it here and you should too.

Democrats are thoroughly bought and paid for by genocidal Zionists and you won't push them to do anything. You'll only compromise yourself going to them.

If it wasn’t for you ‘Genocide Joe’ hypocrites, then maybe Trump wouldn’t be in charge and actively cheering on genocide I never hear any of you talk shit about Trump, you’re all STILL blaming Biden, and a woman who never made policy decisions.

Well said.

You can be mad at his administration if you think he could have done more You can’t try and erase the fact that he was the most outspoken critic of Israel that’s ever been in the Oval But noooooooo, a WOMAN was a bridge too far. Instead, you help the white supremacist get elected. Cool

Damn that's crazy, maybe Harris should have promised to stop supporting the genocide so that she could win instead of lose.

Or maybe you should've just fucking supported her, like a smart person?

Or maybe she should've just fucking not supported genocide, like someone who wants to win?

didn’t at least some of the activists admit that they didn’t protest Trump because doing so would have put them personally in real danger? People were thrilled when they could make the case for the “rational, single-issue Gaza voter,” but they’re back to genocide=genocide because what’s left?

Biden was doing the viciously anti-Palestinian, anti-Muslim policy *domestically*. He was constantly calling anti-genocide protesters "anti-semitic". Biden built the house, Trump is just living in it.

Was he kidnapping and deporting protestors, you fucking moron?

He was doing other things which were also unacceptable. It's funny how you people always place your red line precisely between what the Ds are doing and what the Rs are doing, post facto.

You refused to be guilted about genocide and now you're like "god I can't believe these leftists thought brown non-Americans are human beings"

Before we can defeat our enemies we must first defeat our allies!

Genociders are not my allies

This is your core value, offering token resistance in the form of platitudes while pretending the rest of us lack object permanence.

We warned you that supporting genocide would lead to this and you decided that killing another 10,000 children was a good idea.

This is the thing to me. Whatever you say about 2020 (and even 2016), the fact is that Bernie was trying to win over a populace and infrastructure that was initially against him and failed. You have to win! You can't just convince yourself of your correctness, you gotta turn that into Ws

At the end of the day you can either enact policy with the mandate of the majority or over it. Doing it the former way usually requires compromises and deals that make you feel bad. But it tends to be better than doing it the latter way.

Not when it comes to capitulating to a fascist dictator. Which is what all this dem budding up has brought to us. They showed us they only care about money and power, and now as a result we are all fucked.

"You have to win! You can't just convince yourself of your correctness, you gotta turn that into Ws" the entire thread from the OP is doing exactly this. did they win? did their "pragmatism" and GOP-courting produce a W?

You're a complete dumb fuck if you believe this revisionist bullshit

People who said they support Bernie because of Medicare for All but didn't care if Trump won and the ACA got repealed or Medicaid got cut are an extremely common type and utterly baffling.

My guess is that they used M4A as some gold standard Democrats could never live up to. I genuinely think a lot of them support Bernie bc he gives them an excuse for the bigotry of their family members. They ride nowhere near as hard for Walz or AOC as they do Bernie, and I think that’s the reason.

The notion that there are a huge electorate of untapped and unactivated socialists just waiting for that special candidate out there is another infuriating thing. Like, there isn't a Trotskyite in Allentown Pennsylvania just waiting for that leftist candidate.

I hope I helped disabuse a lefty friend of mine by pointing out that my trailer park's signage was 5 to 1 in favor of Trump over Harris and asking what these people understood that I, a Harris voter, did not

You have to make it stark and put them in the untenable position of defending Trump voters. It's interesting to see who is willing to do it and who won't

I think a lot of them have conservative family members and don’t want to admit that they voted for Trump bc they love his bigotry. So they invent some grievance politics that proposes that their family members are desperate enough to tear it all down, rather than putting bigotry over class interest.

yeah like the idea that a blue collar white guy in rural PA or WI is just waiting for a conversation with a guy from the internet to realize he's really a communist shouldn't have survived contact with 2020--not with the dem primary results nor with the general election results

It was amazing to see so many Bernie supporters convince themselves that Warren, Klobuchar, and Buttigieg dastardly took out poor old Bernie and ignoring that when it came down to just two men, voters clearly preferred Biden

at least the narodniki had the excuse that they didn't have the example of to learn from

there is apparently not a polite Trump-hating Republican just waiting for the most compromising Dem to come along either

Bernie crushed Clinton in the 2016 primary with working class & rural white male voters. Biden crushed Bernie in 2020 with working class and rural white male voters. There's a common theme there but it's not supporting the liquidation of the Kulaks.

Bernie won Nevada, which is in many ways a bellwether state for Democrats. A great indicator of how strong a Democrat can ne nationwide. The DNC decided to declare South Carolina the deciding state, and the rest was history.

But of course you didn’t change it when in power (quite the opposite - you lurched further right, and let the GOP minority dictate what you would even attempt), and you blame everyone but yourselves for your failures. Useless, spoiled, privileged toddlers blaming their imaginary friend. Fuck off.

Ok but this is a problem yes? That when your politics are “normal capitalist evil versus literal Red Skull evil” there is effectively no way electorally to signal disstatisfaction with (1) without empowering (2), and right now there’s no sense that anyone has input into the direction of the dems

Yeah there is. In the words of a famous Tweet, You [redacted] a Walmart.

It's time to see if the left has the courage of their convictions, or if they've been faking it this whole time like we accused them of doing.

yeah, it's a problem

There are non presidential races. They can go to a march. I knkw that's all a bit weak sauce but so is the argument that you just can't vote against Hitler bc his opponent is merely 55% ok.

That’s not the point, the point is that once one major party is Literally Hitler pretty much all intraparty leverage evaporates because the consequences of losing are so dire!

Like if you had idk a CSU like Republican Party and not voting for the Dems meant there was a reasonable chance CSU won, ok that would suck but there’s a reasonable tradeoff of upside risk versus internal leverage and pols can make intelligent decisions about the cost of alienating XYZ side.

It’d be more like knowing one candidate said “I will disappear your neighbors based on skin color, take away your rights, and make your food poison, and I promise I might stop a war” And another said “I promise I might stop a war, otherwise do some good things” And 🤞 the disappearings won’t happen

Like, your framing presented it as “genocide will probably continue regardless so fuck everyone” but the ‘everyone’ included not just Palestinians; there’s also the local—the neighbor, the family, the coworker, the friend, the stranger getting fucked and/or killed now.

And no it’s not a “only care if it impacts me,” because obvi it’s not. It’s a “this will impact an entire people” vs a “this will impact an entire people plus many, many more people.” Sensibly, protecting as many as possible should win out.

But crossing fingers and sitting out, *hoping* the lower number of casualties happens even if the actual literal fash gets in, is…indefensible, immoral, unjustifiable, other adjectives.

And without this you need a sense of actual buy-into the party’s outlook, which the Dems don’t do well because they’ve let the kind of ordinary orgs connecting party to base wither and get Consultanted

In any case i think basically everyone in this fight badly miscalculated how salient I/P actually is politically and how much leverage the pro-Palestinian half of the party had.

My spicier take is the Dems should be more like DSA in a like organizational sense, like you should be able to join and get a email for “vote if you want the dem platform to have THIS resolution” or “join THIS project” or “vote for these candidates who have xyz things they will ask of electeds”

this would literally be illegal in the united states. party organizations can’t direct the voting of elected officials, can’t control who’s on their ballot, and can’t remove people from the party.

good in theory but how do you prevent fascists from joining and subverting the process

they are viscerally unpleasant and uncaring people who can't pretend to be normal or compassionate, this whole thing is them doing the reverse cultural revolution because they can't say slurs and grope the secretary without suffering social consequences

They’re joining/taking over the republicans instead

Sounds like a great thing that someone should help bring to fruition with actions.

They do send out those things. I get emails and surveys. JFC

Oh, I'm writing this one down.

Actually named after John Calvin.