I was thinking of client red flags: the things that, if a potential client does them, I start out suspicious and on my guard. Some of these are about honesty, some are about narcissism and personality, some are about capacity to take legal advice. Here we go: /1
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If I didn’t know better I would swear this was a sub-skeet
Wants to pay fee with a money order from Michigan.
Reminded me of this classic scene in The Wire: https://youtu.be/mU7XDHxCcEU?si=NbIMD_T0jtaLOWZT
Great clip and great show! But *that* client is smarter than any of the clients described in this thread. :)
Yep. But still an example of effectively “controlling” a troublesome client. And the payoff later in the season was a demonstration that Murphy was right.
I need to re-watch it. Although IMO it is among the 2-3 best series I've ever watched (& I don't watch many), I recall very few of the details. :)
I'm in the animation business. My red flag is when asking what they want, hearing "I'll know it when I see it."
Heh when I worked at magazines, I used to dread hearing “make it pop” for layouts
I got this secondhand from a Post supervisor I worked with. Client in an edit bay: "I know if we all think positive, we can make this jump cut work."
Ha. For advertisers, the 🚩 was always asking for more copy in the ad & balking at change fees. Pizza joints always wanted as much copy as a 19th C tonic ad Luckily, my only roll in that part was the paste up, but it taught me the value of good contracts
Wants the world moved amd the aeons wound back. Doesn't want to pay a lick for any of it.
As a graduate of Law&Order University, I feel fully qualified to give my attorneys legal advice, direction, and if necessary act in my own right in court!
😂
When your an associate for Arthur Gold, you know your stuff though.
Look, I am perfectly willing to take any advice you give me as an attorney as long as all of our meetings begin with the “doink doink” noise
Lets walk and talk. Gets us past the dull parts.
I do my own research!
Agree! I watch L&O religiously.
In addition to Law & Order, I took additional classes at “Suits.”
I did 15 seasons of ER just now so I can intubate.
See one, do one, teach one! Welcome Aboard, Doctor, Glad to know you! 💉🩺
Look at the Big Brains on MMMurray! 😆
Don't know about any of that, but if you ever need a bird law guy, I know a guy (from tv).
On the case!
Ahh of course! I remembered hooded hero figure, lost the rest.
My favorite lawyer.
I admit to violating the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 several times this year. I plead poop on the beach as a defense.
😂
I also have decades of law enforcement experience from NCIS
I’m working w the Elsbeth school of law & think that I’m screwed.
I'll have some Rose with that Pro Se
Why would they even make a crime drama if the court scenes weren't 100% accurate?
So much of this applies to medicine...
I imagine it applies to any situation where you need an expert (lawyer, doctor, plumber, tattoo artist, whatever) on a subject you don't really know to do something important.
"They are registered Republicans"
am i, an adult, supposed to have picked out a lawyer to have on call just in case of anything in general or is that something you look into after something happens (being that specific types of crimes need specific lawyers ?)
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Whenever a potential client starts the call with a variation of “You won't believe it, it is the biggest injustice you will see in your career!”. Sir, whatever you are about to tell me, I now know that it is a bog standard issue and that you more likely than not have no viable grounds of appeal.
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Red flags, eh?
Yes, one is about not getting to the point.
Yea. Potential ego issues you say.
Client gives you a 20 minute explanation with a detailed cast of characters that covers 3 years worth of daily business dealing and emails, all of which will take hundreds of hours to review: “So I’m looking for some sort of contingency arrangement.”
I only represent clients on a contingency basis, and I still get super annoyed when they say that.
Honestly, I kind of blame some attorneys’ advertising for the misunderstandings people have about contingency arrangements. People really need to stop playing hide-the-pill.
The sheer volume of PI Pltfs' attorney advertising makes people think every attorney is a Pltfs' attorney, and that "we don't collect unless you recover" is the standard fee arrangement for everything
A friend once had a potential client come in for an initial meeting. He wanted to retain my friend to sue his previous lawyer. What sort of work was he doing for you, my friend asked. Turns out the previous lawyer was hired to sue the lawyer before them. My friend showed him the door right quick.
Did his potential client have a weird orange tinge to him, by any chance? 🚨
Sounds like a circle jerk
I’m not a lawyer but even in my industry the inability to take solid advice is a killer. Why hire an expert if you’re not going to listen to them??
I take it you work in the tech industry, or tech industry adjacent. (Have heard lots of stories that end with: Upper layer management: “But what if we make our program/product do [obvious legal no-no]?” Project manager: “Um, may I remind you that the lawyers already clearly said no to that?”)
Been there (i.e. refused to implement evil idea). Eventually upper management got themselves indicted for other stuff.
To a certain extent I blame Professional Consultants, who let themselves be used to justify things their clients already wanted to do without taking the heat for doing it. "The consultants said we do X, so I'm gonna have to do it even if it hurts my workforce"
Esp consultants who are only about the numbers and no actual human-based strategy. THE. WORST. (and I say that as a consultant)
Oh yeah, consultants who are actually employed *as experts* are great. Their advice is either distasteful to leadership or at least painful, but that's somewhat the price paid for outside expertise, the stripping away of your rosy assumptions.
Leadership wanting their bad ideas laundered? - Bring in the consultants.
You would not BELIEVE the number of divorce clients whose parents are the initial (and thereafter) primary point of contact for the case.
Wow, that is pathetic!
Any client walks in with a stack of papers; any client starts telling me about a relative's case....... They can get lost.
Stack of papers? Why?
I'd be thrilled with a client who brought in a stack of papers - as long as they were relevant to their case.
They're going to show you detailed evidence of why everyone's the problem but them, or they're going to be high-maintenance in a very specific and possibly dangerous way
Ignore me; I'm a therapist and thought this was a therapy post and it seems to be lawyers
The original poster and me are lawyers but your contribution, at least from my experience, was spot on.
I'm pretty sure the "confused about whether this meeting is about therapy or about legal advice" is a red flag for both kinds of advisors.
Those are pretty accurate, especially the “I’ve seen a bunch of other attorneys & they’ve all been wrong about (routine issue).”
do you use these like a bingo game?
Lawyer here. 😂😂😂😂😂
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Not law, but my experience is that the more people hype up how religious and churchy they are is proprtional to how badly they will try to screw you over. (This is not a criticism of religion)
I avoid contractors with religion emblazoned on their trucks for just that reason. As a contractor myself, my company name is all that’s on my van and I even try to park politely.
Yes, it is. And that's okay by me.
I can confirm that this is not a US-only problem.
YES! Canada is not a religious country. I travelled extensively throughout the US on business for years and was always amazed by how many people that I interacted with who managed to fit "my church" or "congregation" or "pastor" into the discussion. It's a way of saying I am superior, a Christian.
See, the only good thing about most people raised Catholics is they’re not Catholics anymore.
"If you're doing business with a religious son-of-a-bitch, get it in writing. His word isn't worth shit, not with the good lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal." -- William S. Burroughs
Words of advice for young people
I'll explain youtu.be/iS_X1Y_X8sg
Sure it is.
I sold and delivered car parts for a while. Plenty of clients did sketchy, dubiously ethical things. But I only ever had one client try to outright steal parts from me - and it was the city's one loudly "Bible-based Christian" used car dealership.
Yes! When someone tells me they "prayed about it" I know I am about to get screwed. 100% of the time.
“I’m a good Christian man and stayed faithful to my marriage vows. It’s been a long time. I’ll drop my claim for custody and walk away in exchange for one more night as husband and wife.” Had to explain those instructions couldn’t be followed and sounded like sexual assault.
Been thinking about this all day and my mind is fucking blown. WOW
By far the most toxic client I ever had. Literally terrified of him, and was so relieved once I stopped representing him. There was other extreme stuff going on, so abusive and he would yell that he was the victim. Real DARVO stuff of nightmares.
The louder a man expresses his faith, the greater your doubt must be.
Maybe it should be.
Not so much these days, but once upon a time a fish symbol on a business card had a high correlation with shoddy work and shoddy work ethic. "Where's the grace, man?" Pffttt Just fucking do what you say you are going to do when you say you are going to do it.
Perhaps it should be? Organized religion is a social structure that propagates an objectively “good” suite of collective behaviors. This is nice on the surface. Yet it is a creation of human minds with human biases and agendas. How incorruptible must the leadership be to not corrupt the message?
I'm an atheist who went to a very liberal seminary for grad school and it was an experience that led me to understand that I can't paint all people of faith with the same brush. That being said, I think your point is entirely valid.
Because God provides a get of hell free card. All you have to do is seek forgiveness from an imaginary friend and presto! You’re in heaven. Religion creates a permission structure and incentive plan to sin.
/2. (1) Arrives to the consultation with an entourage and constantly travels with one. Never a good sign. Likely ego issues. (2) Begins interaction by name dropping, showing you pictures of them with famous people, etc. More ego issues.
It already hints that they expect they will only get an honest effort from you if you think they are important and well-connected.
Name dropping other attorneys and telling me what you say they say about your case is the worst 🚩🚩🚩. If you prefer their name or their advice, you are free to hire them. Otherwise, I'm not impressed and they aren't my fucking phantom co-counsel.
Even if the potential client says “…and he really appreciated the pierogis I got for him”?
I believe it is a basic expectation that your lawyer will keep their underpants on
The whole time? That seems unreasonable.
These feel like uniquely socal concerns
Yet over 30 years I’ve found them to be reliable red flags of flaky, difficult clients.
It's giving me PTSD just seeing them written down.
/3 (3) Related issues: (a) potential client, despite having thought about this a lot, is unable to summarize problem or describe it briefly (b) potential client has lengthy set-piece explanation and refuses to be deterred by questions trying to narrow problem or reacts to questions with irritation
I feel seen. Ever backstory has a backstory.
(1A) has had multiple (>1) other lawyers for this same or related matter
/4 (I don’t need you to be able to explain your defenses to a lawsuit but I need you to be able to say “well I’ve been sued” at the start rather than at the end of 15 minutes. Also I need you to be able to grasp that I am asking questions for a reason).
/5 (4) Client, despite looking for lawyer to advise them, has very strong ideas of what the law is and reacts with disbelief or hostility to being told that’s not right (5) Client gets angry at you when told what the law is if they don’t like it
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I mean… I know some things about the law and the way it works because I’ve learned from lawyers who explained it. There’s no way I would ever claim what I have learned is on the level of an expert, though. At most, I’d use it the way I use my minimal knowledge of cars when speaking with a mechanic.
Many people don't understand the difference between a positive statement (factual) versus a normative statement (opinion about what ought to be). "The law is X" is not the same as "The law should be X." This causes a lot of internet arguments.
/6 Client describes being betrayed and let down by a series of lawyers of which you are the third, fourth, etc. Does it happen? Yes. Is there a strong chance that the common problem is the client? Yes.
I'm on my 3rd family lawyer getting through and after a divorce with kids, so I may be this person. :( To be fair, the first lawyer has had his license suspended since I dropped him, so I may not be entirely the problem.
I follow a hair colorist who does skits and when someone says, "No other hairdresser has every done it right" that is a RED flag.
No matter where you go, there you are.
Never be the third lawyer on a file. Try not to be the second lawyer on the file.
/7 Client describes problem with prior lawyer that is clearly about the client, like “my last lawyer told me [obviously correct proposition of law]” or “I didn’t agree with my last lawyer about x. Did I tell them? No. Why would I do that?”
/8 Client has left everything to the last minute and now expects heaven and earth to move. bsky.app/profile/notr...
To add one from a plaintiff's side perspective: client is focused more on hurting the other person than obtaining the best possible result for themselves.
/9 Will not let you finish a sentence. Refuses to be redirected in a conversation.
“I have just a quick question and a slam dunk case.” Hard pass.
Oh GOD yes. "Slam dunk case" is a huge red flag.
Three other lawyers told me it’s a fantastic case but they were too busy to take it.
/10. So, let’s turn this into more of a positive. How can you consult with a lawyer in a way that makes the lawyer want to take you as a client? There are some pretty simple things you can do.
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/11. First: develop an elevator pitch. You need a 30-second (ideally shorter) intro to what you need. This is an elevator pitch: “my new neighbors were renovating the house and the noise and mess were terrible and I complained to the city and now they are suing me.”
Before you talk about that, I want to discuss more about point #9...
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All of these apply for your accountant as well, but especially points 5-8.
Memorize the phrase: "I am not a lawyer. I know that. I have come to you for legal expertise, which I do not have."
Follow directions! When asked to do something or provide information, do it! Don’t yell at staff or attorneys.
I look at it the same as explaining to a mechanic the noise my car is making - brief description of the sound, and under what circumstances it occurs. I don't need to guess what it is.
These ideas for clients are really good. When somebody calls and makes an appointment with you, you should send them out the list of things to prep - the elevator pitch, what they want to get out of it, etc. That would help them focus and not be nervous.
These are also all red flags in a presidential candidate.
You forgot, “it’s not about the money; it’s the principle.”
I wouldn’t say that’s a red flag. It’s a very common starting point, and my job is to gradually move them off of it. If they refuse to listen, THAT’s a red flag.
Might as well herd cats, Ken.
These are also customer service red flags. At a Motel, each (especially complaining about past stays) signals trouble later.
The amount of overlap between "bad client" and "bad customer" is uncanny. It just goes to show you that no matter what you're an expert at, people are the hardest part of any job.
What do client red flags prompt you to do? Decline representation? Charge more knowing it will be more work? Plan your representation differently? Something else?
/9 client sets up meetings to go over details with investigator which will assist with defense. Client does not show, does not call.
Bit of a tragedy of the commons in that case, right?
I mean, my investigator is in office, so he doesn't waste much of the time waiting for a visit that doesn't come. But client also refuses to entertain the suggestion of a plea, and absolutely will demand to testify.
Or: "The statute of limitations runs out tomorrow. I need to file a case!"
To be fair, some of us have adhd and leave _everything_ to the last minute
Before Drumph came along, you were an avid Reaganitte republican. Still are, so far as I can tell. So, what are your personal feelings, and what progressive policies are you currently in favor of?
You should consider reading literally anything he’s ever posted before making assertions like this, it would help keep you from looking so silly.
That would seem to be a rather dramatic waste of both of our limited time on the earth, based on that question.
How is this relevant to this thread? If you suspect his political leanings don't match yours, don't hire him to be your lawyer?
I have court TOMORROW. I need SOMEONE TO FIGHT FOR ME. No one else will take my case because they are AFRAID OF THE SYSTEM. No, I don't have any money, why do you ask?
But AI says...[thing that is definitely legally wrong but it's been on the internet enough that AI thinks it's true]
Oh my God. I work with a partner at my firm who is (a) very smart, (b) in very high demand by global corporations and the ultra wealthy and (c) is a sucker for a sob story and he has, more than once, taken on clients with family disputes and who have cycled through every other attorney in Philly.
It took me 3-4 bad experiences to make the rule of never taking over a case from another lawyer. It’s never the other lawyer’s fault.
Yes, in most contexts. But if someone convicted in Philly in the 90s and 00s tells me their private lawyers at trial, appeal, and state post-conviction all sucked, is that a red flag about the potential client? No. No it is not.
I fell victim to this one early in my career, “you’ve fired two partner level attorney and now want me, a 1st year associate; how flattering” never again.
This right here could've saved me so much hassle if I knew it earlier in my career. "Huh, the client has a case but can't find a lawyer... Maybe it's too low value for them to take and surely nothing wrong with the client" is the functional equivalent of "I can fix him/her."
This is true for doctor/patient as well.
Run do not walk from this one! I usually refer them to which ever lawyer in town I think is the biggest sleaze bag and will take on anything to churn fees. And is the worst lawyer of course.
Years in the industry have taught me that anyone whose initial conversations are about the awfulness of everyone else that they have worked with, is going to be a problematic person.
Ahahaha
OMG. Related, when I get told by a parent that the kid has had nine bad teachers in a row, I'm always the tenth.
Also a teacher, and I can relate to way too many things in this thread.
Or that there isn’t enough $ upside for the lawyer to be bothered w the client (derogatory to lawyers) Not always the client’s fault.
Watch out for this one if it is any kind of gender based discrimination case because women still have issues with people not believing them. And that includes lawyers.
"If everyone you meet is a jerk, you're the jerk." or "If everything smells like crap, check your upper lip."
100 this!
I've taken several cases where client fired last lawyer, thinking to myself that last guy should have done a better job to keep this client. Half to time, I was ignoring red flags in client because I wanted the job.
Said it before, I’ll say it again. As a wise prof told us, the cases you decline will define your practice at least as much as the ones you take. And, a lawyer is not a bus. Assigned counsel aside - we can decline rep.
Absolute red flag. Nothing you can do will satisfy this guy.
(6) Client is a lawyer
I've seen that cut both ways. And when I've elected to get representation, I withhold that little detail until at least the end of the first consultation, after I've assessed my level of confidence and decided to engage the lawyer.
Sure, not a total dealbreaker. Definitely a flag though
“Well ChatGPT says….” 🚩
Oh dear god, yes.
This was such a common red flag when I was representing low-income tenants (for free!). The ones who were upset at being told they were wrong ALWAYS ignored my advice to not do something that I knew would make it worse so I could try and work something out with their landlord.
Doubly true in IP.
These 2 in particular are very similar to interactions I’ve had (and many other clinicians, too) with patients. Former colleagues I’ve spoken to since I retired say it’s gotten worse.
Awful lot of "clients" on social media... :)
I have sometimes said something close to, “If you think I’m so stupid, why are you so intent on hiring me?”
Ive always wondered if the proliferation of copaganada on TV and other law adjacent entertainment has made it harder for lawyers. Life isn't a movie or tv show, it often (usually) doesn't look or work like that.
(4) and (5) are ubiquitous in criminal appeals.
Is a certain amount of *generalized* 5 acceptable if not taken out ON the lawyer? Because there's a lot of WTF in criminal law, to be fair.
Venting is fine, asking for an explanation is fine and undetstandable. A lot of it is WTF.
To be fair my brushes with the law thus far have largely involved the kind of protest-related activity where you tell the lawyer what law you're proposing to break and make sure they're onboard before you do it, but still. I like my lawyer, I don't want to make him sad.
I had a client, convicted of repeatedly molesting his girlfriend's teenage daughter, who got upset with me when I declined to raise his sure-fire winner argument on appeal: that his trial counsel had provided ineffective assistance by not putting on evidence that the daughter was a lesbian.
Child welfare law too.
(6) Calls your firm on Friday 4:59 pm crying that they need an attorney for a hearing being held the following Tuesday. There's a reason why they don't have legal representation yet...
I’ve heard solo attorneys say they never take new clients who call after 4pm—that it correlates strongly with problem clients.
And they're probably drunk.
Tuesday? I have gotten Monday morning.
Not to keep the one up chain going but I got a call once from a guy who was on his way to the courthouse for his hearing. Wanted an attorney there with him. 😂🫠
Change of profession here, but I will absolutely add a link to the one up chain. As an eligibility worker I once had a client call to say they’d just put required documents in the mailbox so why weren’t benefits on their card yet?
To their credit, as soon as the words left their mouth I could hear from their voice that they realized they sounded insane, and they quickly ended the call.
Probate law (no hearings on Monday).
Or picks the day before the statute of limitations runs to call your office.
This one in particular I remember from being a public defender
Ooh, yeah, we got a memo about a #5 just this week saying none of the lawyers want to deal with him anymore so don't bother setting any appointments, just be pleasant and don't make any promises. (And to hang up if he gives us any guff.)
On number 5, is requesting you write, at no additional cost, "a 5 page paper with at least 10 case law citations" to justify a single line reality check in a previous email a sign of getting angry or of something else?
Yes! We recently had to hire a lawyer to help us with a relative’s trustees, and I realized that I had to have what was essentially an elevator pitch—short and dramatic. (“They stopped paying her taxes. They stopped paying her memory care.”)
oh shit this applies to tax clients, too "Why are you asking me *that*??"
Have they never watched a Perry Mason?
It's especially vexing when people ignore questions like "How did you get in my apartment?" or "Why do you think I'm a lawyer?" or "What do you need a torch for?"
Please take into account neurodivergence in this, as many of your items would describe someone who is neurodivergent. Deciding not to work with neurodivergent people is an important decision to make consciously, not by accident or through ignorance.
The problem I tend to have with ND clients isn’t the fixation on a particular story, it’s Google JD. Doctors, engineers etc who are not happy with “spousal support entitlement is complicated and I can’t make a prediction” and want to know exactly why. If they’re smart as well as ND they go through
the case law themselves and figure it out.
In my experience neurodivergent clients — and I have had many who are engineers and accountants and doctors and so forth — tend to do well with clearly expressed expectations. The person who most typically needs this advice is the “grandma” character, not the “programmer” character.
I didn’t realize my autism would go away when my children procreate! Glory!
Magic eggs.
Please consider that Popehat said the exact opposite of what you just replied to.
Perhaps the traits in question are not actually that well correlated with autism?
“Brianna Wu follower”
I have horrendous adhd. I also know how to concisely answer a question with the realization that pertinence is pertinent, and the professional helping me does not need to know everything that led up to that moment, starting when I was 5 and pushed my sister Edith down the stairs and blamed the dog.
I share this experience so much. I feel like fighting that urge and learning to get really iron-clad with the answer is a key masking skill that fuckton a of us learn (and then being that straightforward ALSO gets called a symptom?)
In my working life I’ve learned to try to find an analogy whenever I want to get into The Details.
Aaaand there it is
*morphs into Carly Simon* You walked into the thread like you were walking into the spot Your avatar strategically dipped below one eye Your reply it was all for naught You had one eye in the mirror as you watched yourself gavotte
And all the posters dreamed that they'd be first blocker They'd be your blocker, and.... You're so lame, you probably think this post is about you You're so lame, I'll bet you think this post is about you Don't you? Don't you?
Yeah... They're correlated with experiential avoidance, which is available to basically everyone all the time.
You just have to let them recite 3(b). Then you ask your questions. It took me a while to learn this.
(note: i've found this to become more and more prevalent as people stop being capable of remembering... things, like a point they'd like to make. so, they push through without listening because they get too easily distracted. ADHD, some; onset dementia/"age", others.)
This is very true in IP as well.
Not a lawyer, but guessing the set-piece means they've got a very specific narrative for what happened to them and what they want done about it. This will not be reflected by reality. They don't want advice, they want to be told they are right.
Right in one.
My one counter to 3-b is please leave room for neuro diversity. The rehearsed nature may be their only way of getting the information out and interruptions can cause them to forget information.
Being unwilling to take questions is a halt and catch fire for me. End of discussion.
Had an engineering client wearing cashmere trench coat like a cape walk into a meeting accompanied by two goons. No.
The CEO of a bank I used to work for was visited by a mob guy who inquired about financing for a new hotel on the east (ocean/beach) side of highway A1A in Juno Beach, Fla. My boss informed him that no construction is permitted there. The mob guy said, "Don't worry. I'll take care of that."
Oh, that even feels like the beginning of a terrible mob film. Eeeek.
Exactly. The structural engineer and I locked eyes and had good laugh afterwards.
Sometimes you just have to turn down a client. Even if it is the one and only Silky Johnson
Sounds like big money. And many, many issues.
For 1. It’s even worse if the entourage is the clients family and it’s not a case that’s family law - soon you’re gonna have a client whose decisions are going to vary depending upon what family member is in their ear next
Sounds like you run in fancy circles!
(X) Client comes to a meeting with a monkey
Even well-meaning non-lawyer buddies they discuss the case with and take advice from can be a headache.
Especially.
Ugh I hate (2). Client once paid us $200 just stroking his team’s ego during lengthy introductions. The company crashed and burned.
Suggested variant of (1), (1)(b): brings their non-party family members in for 1st meeting & asks them for guidance/permission on taking our recs. End result: needless delays in settlement, much time lost to explaining that no, your mom's incorrect, this is not a $1m case, please don't call her rn..
Even worse, the person who calls to make the appointment is not the potential client. I’m a divorce lawyer, and pushy family members have attempted to book consultations. One time, I even had the sister and father show up - without the knowledge of potential client. Just no.
Wait, but the picture I showed was with you. 😕
Client shows up with a banker box or two full of their “theories.”
Has views about fringed flags.
And the distinction between "driving" and "traveling."
youtu.be/ESI6dwLrVEI?...
I remember that!
Or potential client shows up with box with rolls of quarters to pay your retainer … and works at the bank.
And a chart with red string attaching all the coincidences
Client shows up with two body guards in Adidas track suits?
Drug dealers pay their retainers, though, so I’d probably offer the posse coffee.
Which reminds me of a travel story. Thread coming later.
Claims rights under "admiralty law".
“These people don’t understand I’m a sovereign citizen & their laws don’t apply to me! I’m only here because you speak their language!”
Physicists get this, too
“Okay, as we both know, the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified because Ohio isn’t really a state, so I’m thinking we can—“ “Oh, gosh, I just remembered my schedule is completely full up for the rest of the decade! But good luck!”
My all time favorite was the CPA with two boxes. The first was a complete audit of both of their businesses and their financials. Quite helpful. The second was photos of the couple in their sex dungeon. She felt these meant he would be denied custody🙄 I took it, though. I liked the novelty.
Thank you, I could swap out my experiences with yours in the graphics field, every single point you make applies there. Especially the last minute.
I worked for 15 years in web design and digital marketing. I've met so many versions of this nightmare client.
Everything in this thread describes how the orange toad approaches lawyers
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I doubt it’s coincidental. Been saying for years that the only way he keeps finding lawyers is that they are already dead inside or are okay being stiffed on their bills. Possibly both.
Clearly, some of them are astonishingly stupid.
Or can’t get ahead in the normal fashion, but are still cravenly ambitious. Trump is their ticket to the big time! Ugh.
It's this. Everyone knows he doesn't pay his bills, so anyone working for him now is looking to get paid some other way. He also picks people who themselves are criminals.
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I'm going to school to become a therapist. I'm absolutely dreading those kinds of clients. Client: "But, ChatGPT says I have [whatever is trendy on TikTok at the moment]." Yeah, no.
I think the only logical comeback is, "Well, they don't know YOU, now do they?" Good luck!
You and ER docs, thanks to Big Pharma advertising directly to prospective patients plus Da Internets for DYI research and diagnosis.
Yeah, didn't worm-head (RFK, Jr.) claim he'd abolish those intolerable ads?! (In the old days, when I worked at the FDA, those ads, PROPERLY, were not allowed.)
I always tried to imagine what Perry Mason’s internal dialogue was like when Hamilton would bring out some damning revelation of something the client ‘forgot’ to mention. I can’t imagine dealing with that in real life.
Ha-ha, if you are a criminal defense attorney, your clients ALWAYS hold back on you. And if you a prosecutor, your law enforcement witnesses often hold back on you. You learn to take the situation as it is and figure out a way forward. You learn that assigning blame is unproductive.
I’m sure. I just always liked the way Burr usually managed to stay non reactive and soldier on but Paul or Della would always roll their eyes and say something about someday getting a client that wouldn’t lie to him. Just a point of affection between me and that lovely long gone crew.
This entire thread reminds me of when, in my early years, my then manager sent me to a 'how to deal with difficult people' course. It turned out to really be a 'don't be a difficult person' course'. Bless that manager for caring enough about my career to do that.
The client who says, “I don’t care what it costs, it’s the principle of the thing,” will complain, loudly, about the first bill he receives from you.
Heh, this reminds me, I've always wondered how a lawyer would react if I tried to hire them to write a monkey paw-proof Wish for a D&D campaign with a very devious DM.
Speaking as a lawyer who plays D&D we’re not equal to a devious DM
That's like making a deal with a crossroads demon, and I think we all know how those turn out.
Is this entire thread supposed to make me think of Donald Trump? Bc that's who I'm picturing
Same
It’s where I went.
It's just 1), check, 2) check, 3) check... check check check
Great thread
Very similar to the points to be aware of when practicing psychotherapy
This was my first thought. I've known too many of these forever-aggrieved therapist shoppers.
My mother was very impressed that at 10 years old, he recognized his mom had the problem, not him or his sister
My MIL is a lovely 80yo woman today. But When my husband and his sister were kids 40ish years ago And she was divorcing their father she dragged them from psychiatrist to psychiatrist looking for someone to tell her Yes You're Right He's A Monster Nope she was just a narcissist.
My mantra: Sir/Ma’am, I am a lawyer, not a magician.
Or, "I'm not a miracle worker."
I’m not a miracle worker, I’m a janitor! (Credit to the “Michele Clayton” movie script.)
I always had the worst luck with probate clients. Tried to explain to them either the will or intestate succession and how it would be even if they won but it really boiled down to a decades long blood feud
Very Bleak House.
That’s why I waited until the ink was dry on the estate paperwork before initiating my decade long blood feud with my brother. (Joking, but we have dealt with estate lawyers fairly recently. Good luck contesting a will. Estate Lawyers are through AF.)
You have my sympathy. I grew up with people like that. All the resources boiled away in the litigation and what remained was an excellent glaze of venom.
My mother was surprised to find she was named executor of her aunt's will. Arrived to find one of the aunt's three sisters had just broken into the house and was loading a car with the aunt's stuff. Understood then.
You knew the Jarndyces?
I grew up in the family memorialized in the novel and movie "Sometimes A Great Notion" (Yes, it was based on real life, and of course there was an intellectual property rights lawsuit over it. Suicides, bankruptcies and internecine wars later, my uncle died just before a 60 minutes expose.)
Wild... I'll have to ask my dad if he knows anything about this. One of his first logging jobs was w my grandpa on the Sixes river probably in the 60s, lots of stories.
did a quick search. your grandmother's book is available out there!!!
About the right time - at the moment I can't pull up the National Labor Relations Board hearing but I'm sure it was all over the West Coast at the time. The novel was based on a legal conflict with the union which involved not unloading logs. Ask him if he knew Al or Hank Firchau.
My great grandmother wrote "The Lady and the Lumberjack", a pretty fun read that covers a lot of largely forgotten logging camp subculture. I know a couple things from family lore that were left out, predictably feral logger stuff, lol.
ooooooh feral logger stuff! so your fam was Sixes River country? I actually worked (silviculture) at Gold Beach. Have fond memories of taking the Sixes River route back from Grants Pass at speed. Driver, nagged about deer on the road, reassured us that he was looking in his rearview mirror.
My fam was in Coos Bay but you know the gig, you drove as far as you had to to work the job... my grandfather started catskinning after WWII. A quiet reasonable man who always used maximum dynamite because he said re-shooting it was worse, faster to just run the blade over rubble. 😄
HA!
My uncle blew up his favorite car once when he was out at a road building site. Seems there was a dispute over how much dynamite to use to remove a stump. Being the boss, he won, they used more, and it launched onto the car, totaling it. So much feral logger behavior.
I had not heard of this before. someone tried fighting the river out of stubborness & spite? That's impressive!
stubborness and spite you bet. Original title of the book was Never Give A Inch, but Keysey interviewed many of the people associated with the fam and my uncle Hank, whom he disliked, had a favorite song called Goodnight Irenew/ the line sometimes I get a great notion to jump in the river and drown
oops "Good Night Irene". BTW there's a heartrending scene where someone stuck under a log dies in a rising river. Yhat was art, but in life a crewmember felled a log on my uncle Hank and thought they'd killed him. Didn't, Died in an air crash later. As in movie, a huge funeral. Many did like him.
thank you for sharing that. Its interesting hearing personal, outside of the art, views.
Seriously?????? Holy shit.
Very seriously! I come of amazingly bad people. As far as I can tell, I escaped.
I'm glad you're okay
Thanks :) ... me too. (PS... it got weirder from there!)
Yeah. There really wasn't anything merry about those freaks.
Snort!
May I add another huge red flag, clearly sexist behavior toward attorney or staff. Had one client talking to me as a 1st year associate because he didn’t want the “woman lawyer”, my assigned partner and boss. Automatic “we can’t help you”
In my day, opposing parties, and especially their lawyers, assumed I was the court reporter or the secretary of my side's attorney. 🙄
And once, a bailiff tried to chase me out of the area where defense attorneys sit before their clients' hearings: "Young lady, this area is reserved for attorneys." :)
In a way that's a shame, if they insist on being represented by a newly qualified attorney that could be some great experience and the client will get the quality of outcome they deserve 🙃
TBH this should be taught in law school.
One of the best compliments I ever got was that after I sued someone for defamation, my lawyer asked if I had ever considered being an attorney.
Why this is so hard for lawyers to manage: all of these difficult client characteristics are also characteristics of people (a) with money and (b) that will generate endless legal work. You try to filter for "(c) won't pay their bills", but it's a luxury to refuse clients who will inflict misery.
Most people coming in like that are not rich people with endless work. In fact the majority of those people won’t bring in more work, and take up so much time that you actually get less done on other cases. This is akin to telling servers that the jerk who won’t tip is actually a big tipper
And btw most potential clients are NOT like that. But the ones who come in like that, are almost always a lot more work, effort and stress than they are worth. And they treat you like the fact they hired you means your job is to just say yes and do whatever it is they want.
In my experience the problem clients are also the ones who refuse to give you money up front, insist you work on contingent fee, and will never pay whatever you bill for expenses, while absorbing huge amounts of time and fretting. They are energy sucks as well as deadbeats.
Here's a good one: show up to your first EPO hearing without a lawyer, make ridiculous arguments, threaten to countersue the person, demand access to shared work space (after being fired), THEN go try to find a lawyer to countersue. Esp. good if you go in raging about sluts & hos.
That sounds terrifyingly like a real memory. Yipe (in the singular).
Current events, I'm afraid! Needless to say we are the ones seeking the EPO.
best wishes for your success.
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I wrote something similar geared toward transactional attorneys. Spot and Avoid the Toxic Client www.linkedin.com/pulse/spot-a...
Love me some Pope Hat University.
Just don’t start your next consultation with “My first five attorneys said I had no case, but according to my reading of Pope Hat’s blog…”
I had a case: woman suing my firm's client (life insurer) for benifits for her "deceased" husband, who had abandoned her and then, allegedly, died. She was on her 7th attorney. Needless to say, he was inexperienced and dumb. We eventually produced the dead husband for his deposition1. 1/
Her crazy attorney then amended his complaint to alleged that the life insurance company had failed to produce the "deceased" husband sooner. :) 2/
🤣 That's good advice.
Somewhere between 4 and 7, client calls a reporter to make a long-winded pitch for an exclusive on their riveting story…
So.... After reading down to post 20 or so, law and medicine are more alike in some ways than I might have thought. Cheers and/or condolences.
Both are professional diagnosticians and aim to resolve problems. Neither sees their clients or patients on their best days.
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Retired now, but skeets 5 & 6 were my biggest flags for problem clients. It drove me crazy when they came to me for advice (ie probate, estate planning, contracts), and then told me I was wrong b/c their cousin told them they heard the opposite from their best friend who got it from their plumber.
Even worse when patients do the same about medical advice. (Dr Oz, TikTok, vegetable tablet supplement commercial, etc)
Almost all of these apply to medicine too. If a patient does these things, youre in for a rough ride
Really depends upon the doctor. Many doctors have closed minds and decide their diagnosis before even speaking to the patient. Others learn a lot by talking to their patients. Which do you think make better diagnostic decisions?
In fact, if you do the things on this list, most of us hope you dont come back. Just saying
😶
You didn’t read the list either
Oh no, I did. I'm on your side.
Sorry! I misinterpreted your comment. I could write a book about a week in my clinic.
I was just like, I'm going to silently watch this takedown.
😂😂
“I’m a crap doctor who would rather you shut up than have proper medical treatment for your illness is a bad choice. But you do you.”
I make great decisions but as soon as you tell me you did your own research, im out
Posting this shows that what you want, far more than helping anyone, is to be unquestioned. If medicine is about your ego trip, then you’re going to be a bad doctor.
Lol did you read the list?
Lol, did you read anything I said? Or like your medical diagnoses, did you make your decision and decide anyone who has a different experience must be wrong? The God Complex is a helluva drug!
so… You did *not* read the list but still righteously posted to my reply *to the list* (that you didnt read) Congrats! You made the list! your doctors definitely hate you and hope you no-show every appointment so they can kick you out. I promise.
shows up with an unscaled sketch on grid paper, saying "all you need to do is draw this up".... Wants me to do the "first one for free; then we'll do more (unspecified projects) going forward. Not saying, of course, that since I did the first one for free, subsequent projects would be discounted.
Oh, well--now you're getting into people looking for writing services.
Good thread. My touchstone is the trust I place in the little voice inside that says "no".
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Client approaches you for “investment advice”, turns out they have shitloads of physical cash in Dubai they need to launder. (They are an Eastern European arms/oil dealer)
Wait. Wut?? Who are you?
Or a congressman from the Florida 7th.
🚩 deep in a k-hole, drooling, pissing all over himself and his gaming chair, feeding USAID into the wood chipper
and, yet, trump can still hire lawyers.
never good lawyers, s'truth.
I imagine in the [near] future you’ll see clients having an AI generated pamphlet on their hands that will tell you how to best proceed with their case.
Recently a guy who was self-representing had an AI generate a video of a fake lawyer making arguments. The judge was displeased, to say the least.
Oh yeah, some of these are red flags for teachers as well. Especially special ed teachers (shudders as I remember the parent who was convinced her struggling reader was a prodigy because said student...read and interpreted the Bible for her. Said student was in 6th grade. Need I say more?)
Same. I was an architect before I started teaching. It took about 15 minutes to figure out if a potential client was going to just be their own architect.
This is great stuff.
As a public defender, I can’t turn away clients, and generally I have good relationships with clients even after“red flag” moments. THAT BEING SAID, a personal red flag is when a client or their family want to vet my religious beliefs. Fortunately it doesn’t happen that often.
Misha, have you ever noticed which clients thank you after a trial? In my experience, it was the honest and innocent ones.
Generally, clients seem grateful at the end of a trial. Even in cases that go the wrong way, my experience is clients see the effort and fight you put up, and are appreciative. I actually get occasional letters - just check-ins, holiday cards, etc. - from clients who unfortunately went to prison.
I found the same… just grateful and gracious all around!
Also, good for you for taking on this work. Crim Defense lawyers are my heros, especially public defenders. Kudos to you.
Thanks! I’m no hero, but I appreciate your kind words!
I had one specifically ask me if I was a Christian. The answer is "NO!" but I took a moment to think about what he might actually mean by that, and so said nothing and instead engaged his wife in conversation while seating everyone. He completely forgot he asked the question and I never answered it.
I love the response to that question given by one of my mother's college friends: "No ma'am, I'm an Episcopalian."
Actually, my favorite religious discussion with a client was when a guy charged with some very serious felonies was not sure about me and said “I think I’m going to need a Jew lawyer on this case.” Sir you are talking to a Jew lawyer.
It sounds like he never actually knew any Jewish people and believed all the worst stereotypes.
I think he genuinely thought that Jewish lawyers were something like miracle workers! The A Team of the law, so to speak.
There is a very funny-sad episode of All in the Family about Archie Bunker looking for a Jewish lawyer when he decides to claim a thoroughly fake injury after a taxi accident. His daughter and SIL are horrified at his stereotypes (but of course Archie always stereotypes ppl). “Archie’s Aching Back.”
Yeah, ignoring it often works! Sometimes it rears its head later in the stage of deciding whether to take an offer or go to trial. A client might have a “god’s got me,” approach that can interfere with earthly lawyering, but usually people return to rational self-preservation as a goal. Usually.
It does get tough with the clients who think they know the law & don't like that you tell them what it is. That's typically when I hear the "whose side are you on? You're not even going to fight for me!" My dude, I definitely will as hard as I can, but I'm not a magician, the law is what it is. It
Omg the number of times I have said, I’m not a magician, I don’t have a crystal ball, and I have said “Abracadabra!” strongly and with conviction several times, & yet your case is STILL HERE. Also ~ once again ~ stop talking about your case on jail calls.
Usually sucks & I disagree with it, but I can't make it go away. Believe me, if I had that power, i would be using it aaaaaall the time!
I have this conversation (or a variation of it) constantly. "Why can't you just make the DA dismiss my case?" "Because if I had that power, I would be the greatest public defender on the planet. Also, I wouldn't be a defense attorney, because we don't have that power."
“But have you even TRIED asking the state to drop the charges? You just seem lazy to me!”
IANAL, grew up in a family of cops, lawyers and judges. Headhunter for 38 years, I’ve owned my own firm since 1991. Stubborn, close-minded clients who are resistant to data or advice contrary to their preconceptions are usually trouble. I demand a big premium and very well defined terms to engage.
Generally, THEY pass.
Sounds familiar!
Biggest red flag; when they tell you that they know someone who got xyz in court, and they deserve the same, even when there is no way in hell that is going to happen. And then treat you like you don't know what you are talking about 🙄🙄
When they tell me their buddy is a cop and the cop told them the law is X so the case is invalid. Or all they want me to do is file things under my name that they wrote. Or they do not want to plead or go to trial they just want the case to go away...
Well, in the 2 cases in which I was a plaintiff, that's exactly what I did: had to rewrite all of my crummy attorneys' briefs. ;)
Exhibit #1 in practicing law without a license, fraud on the court, and motion for sanctions filing. You never allow anyone to file a brief under your Bar# that YOU did not write.
To clarify: I rewrote large portions of the briefs, returned them to the attorneys for review and implementation in their brief, and those attorneys signed & filed the brief. Believe me, I highly improved the final product, and my attorneys knew it. Signed: a licensed attorney.
Yep I totally believe you. You a licensed attorney hired another firm to represent you in a lawsuit. You used your super attorney skills to write such a wonderful brief they cried about how good it was and submitted it under their name. The judge was like totally moved and instantly ruled for you.
Wow, you are quite the asshole!
Oh, a paralegal?!
Your response is extremely weird. I have often politely suggested improvements to the prose of my various attorneys, and they have often used those suggestions. I'm a writer; I know my limits, I know my strengths, I trust my lawyer to reject my ideas if they're dumb.
Thank you. :)
The panicked 19 year old who got high on meth, stole a car, and went on a high speed chase that caused a wreck and is facing 25+ years and keeps calling everyday I can deal with. Old people who think they are special and I just need to do what they tell me not so much. Sr partner gets them. 😈
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Same idea in clinical medicine. I came by some the hard way and actually developed a talk for medical students & residents - “Dealing with the Difficult Patient.”
Wait, you don’t want me to tell a story about every ailment since childhood leading to why I’m here today?
Or “Oh, Dr. Feighner, your wife is so lucky…” (DANGER, DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!!)
Sooooo if a client acts exactly like your small child?!? Travels with entourage, name drops all friends, never tells you problem, doesn’t like what other parent has to say, doesn’t let you finish a sentence, leaves everything to last minute.
It's fascinating how many of these are universal and how many literally never apply when you just have court-appointed criminal cases.
In my lawyer hunt, I simply laid out how Sunrun was refusing to honor a contract because I wasn't willing to pay them a "breach fee" on a separate contract that they claimed (without evidence) that I owed. It took me several months to even get an appointment. (1/2)
I got that appointment and Sunrun buckled, paying for everything. (CA extortion law was compelling.) I now wonder, did I need a lawyer to learn how to present a "slam dunk*" case to a lawyer? ===== * details require about 2 pages of text Anyway, settled and it's all good now.
You may not have needed a lawyer to teach you how to present anything. But sometimes it's the letter on legal letterhead that convinces the other side to fold. If someone is pro se (unrepresented), the opponent assumes it's because that person is a huge problem red-flag-covered client.
I spent 6 months arguing with them about two independent contracts each with arbitration clauses and they responded with various rationales as to why they would not do the work. They settled on, "you owe us money." I spent 10 weeks beaching lawyers (not-my-lane, too-busy, ...) It was a letter (1/2)
over an "esq." signature that finally got them to the table and contacting the state bar that got the settlement. The bar apparently frowns on the use of extortion.
I hate autocorrect: b̶e̶a̶c̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ beseeching
Laughs in public defender
I'm not a lawyer, but I identified with all of these as a former labor union rep.
I work in tv and am adopting this list as a way to know when to turn down a job.
When they say “the other attorneys I talked to this about said…” One time I got “you’re the 8th lawyer I’ve talked about this with” (and it wasn’t even a slick attempt to conflict everyone)
I was once the fourth law firm on a case. It didn't go so well. I had a chat with French counsel (the company was French) about the terrible state of the case. The lawyer was shocked. I said "Did nobody say this before?" "No. Nobody."
Another more subtle problem: potential client is not able to form a goal or describe an acceptable result or settlement. “I want to see their bones ground to dust and hear the wailing of their spouses and children” is not helpful.
A family member was in a horrific car accident last year, and their first impulse coming out of ICU sedation was basically that, with way more swear words. Fortunately, continued recovery, consultation with a reasonable lawyer, and research into the defendant's assets (few), shifted their attitude.
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This thread really hits home that patent law is Different
Would Enjoy a thread on red flags from new patent law prospective clients. Is it the perpetual motion / conservation of energy folks? The “they’re trying to hush up my world changing invention” ones? The ones who’ve been turned away by every patent prosecution firm - they’ve all been bought off?
The ones that will pay you in success fees and also argue with you about those fees.
Candidly I have not had a lot of drama, mostly work with sophisticated clients There’s definitely a typology of inventors—some really dislike lawyers & the patent process & their employer forcing them to participate (fair); some insist on being *very* involved in the process
Probably the most common “client did something to screw the case” situation is when they make/made a public disclosure of the inventive subject matter and don’t tell you about it. That happens from time to time and can create a real scramble
A few times I have worked with inventors so involved in the process they made me sit through a bespoke PowerPoint they made just to walk through how they think we should respond to the patent examiner
Once or twice, I had to work with Dr. Oz wellness crackpots trying to patent some woo. All you can do is give them candid legal advice and if they want to proceed that’s their advised choice, but with the woo ppl it can be hard to get them to accept why the examiner rejected their claimed invention
But it’s novel! And it’s not covered by those other patents! And now I understand you don’t even have to make it work, just reduce it to practice!
This one probably presented red flags from day one: ipethicslaw.com/scotus-threa...
Ye gods. Or at least from the appeal level where client piped up to complain his lawyers weren’t just parroting his German in English, but cleaned up. Yikes on stilts. Maybe that client wanted control because had bad prior experience. I sincerely hope losing at SCOTUS would help reeducate.
… mostly
I would wager that many medical professionals have a similar list of red flags. People who self-diagnose using the interwebs and then are convinced they know more than the doctor. A friend of mine has an adult child with mental health issues who keeps firing docs for being "stupid."
Yeah, I’m gonna push back there some, as I did some self diagnosis & had to fight my then dr for several months to get my A1C checked, & I ended up right, & they then gave me a treatment plan that was appropriate for someone 30 years older. That + “Adult ADHD doesn’t exist” both tarnished the halo.
Tbf, my wife is a medical librarian who teaches evidence based medicine research methods to clinicians, so I usually go in with a healthy understanding of what they’re going to find when they check their guidelines. But I just had a nurse catch something w 5 questions that baffled my PCP for months.
My hub's lifelong bestie's dad was a wonderful, caring doctor. He fired my husband's stepmom as a patient. Said she was too difficult Not one single person who knows that woman was surprised or blamed him for doing it.
Imagine my astonishment when after 2 years of fighting with doctors it turns out I was right all along and had a rare GI disease and not an eating disorder.
It certainly feels like I have to practically self diagnose in order to get test to investigate doesn’t it?
I’ve had them literally refuse to provide the necessary test because they were afraid it would refute their (wrong) diagnosis. And yes, I’m “just a patient”, but I’m living this every day, so I might have something useful to contribute.
Had 16 doctors over 7 specialties in 5 years tell me it was musculoskeletal problems. Husband took me to the er after 10 days of unable to get out of bed. Doctor 17, specialty 8 ordered a ct contrast and found a 9x5mm kidney stone stuck in my ureter. But me asking if my kidney is dying means nothing
Exactly. And the others are mad that you didn’t have what they “know” you were supposed to have. Like you were being obstinate by having your affliction instead of what they decided you MUST have.
I find the same as true in real estate. They can’t explain what it is they want to buy, brings an entourage with them to help them make the decision, but it only gets them more confused, get upset when you show them information about the current market, ask your advice and then choose not to listen.
Okay, I don't argue with my attorney, but I kinda do my real estate agent, so thank you for making me aware of that. ☹️ I will be better with the 3 properties I have left.
I mean as a group we are not infallible. lol And a healthy discussion can lead you to clarify in your own mind what is really important to you so I won’t say don’t argue with your agent. Or maybe I will say don’t “Argue” with your agent, but do give their opinion appropriate weight.
@unroll.skywriter.blue
The thread as a shareable webpage: https://skywriter.blue/pages/did:plc:s6j27rxb3ic2rxw73ixgqv2p/post/3lw2phxddrk2h.
This. But patients and doctors.
Is it wrong that the only thing I want to know about my doctors starting out is whether they believe in vaccinations? Way I figure, that’s a complete screening right there.
I mean. There are personality red flags for doctors too. But that’s not a bad start.
Sure. But personality red flags are a second tier issue. “Understands the basics of epidemiology” is kind of essential.
Do you ever just tell people once two or three of these have happened to fuck off out of your office?
I had a case, and due to some of it being covered by insurance and some of it needing different types of lawyers/ I ended up with 4 different legal interpretations of my situation…… and not a single one of them matched . So get off your high horse - because you are displaying red flags for my funds
Basically I would not employ you! Your list is bias towards ideal clientele. You’re unable to establish and listen to clients POV which is vital to understanding their actual needs. Suggest you go on a coaching course - to aid your communication and expectations. You can’t have informed clients
Able to articulate their case in 40 seconds- who also don’t know the law and take your word on it as totally correct, Your the red flag
I'm a landlord and have a peculiar list of red flags - they aren't wrong, though! When you've done a job long enough, they become intuitive. A valuable skill set, because some of the best deals you'll ever do are the deals you DON'T DO.
being a landlord isn't a job
Haha, tell that to the deck I just painted! The stove, fridge, washer dryer I just replaced, the contractor appts and meetings, lawn mowing, hedge trimming, dryer vent cleaning, yada yada. I've spent 2 solid weeks, 16 hr days, repainting the entire interior of a house in time for new tenants.
All of that is self-directed investment in growing or maintaining the value of your property. You don't work for a wage or answer to a boss. It's an insult to actual working people to describe it as a job.
Wow. I worked 60 hour weeks in a corporate job with travel, sometimes 2 jobs, with a weekend side hustle, and rentals as another side hustle, for 38 years, so . . .
...so then you should understand the difference, that your ongoing capital investment is not a "job". You used to have a job but now depend by choice on a laboring underclass to support you. Own it, don't pretend that you work a job and especially don't pretend that you have solidarity with workers
I work for Coldwell Banker as a real estate agent, have a manager, weekly sales meetings, etc. Happy yet?
I value any work you do, my brother.
My red flag is being a parasite to society in the first place
Please list them 🙏
I'll leave it better than i found it. *Always* a sign of a pain in the ass tenant.
1st l have a long email w/application instructions +docs to submit. Pay attention to how long they take to apply, how well they follow instructions, how many questions they ask. If they don't follow instructions or are confused or incomplete, they can make a bad tenant. Also no lawyers, no doctors.
"I might have my grandson move in," or similar, which means you will not know who's living there. Incoherent stories about why they are moving. People moving in the rental off-season often have sketchy backstories. Or "I've been looking so long," you have to follow with "How many apps have done?"
People who start asking weird things on the tour -real: "Can you please repaint everything white? We don't like these colors." "I know you're looking for a year, but I'll just do 6 months to start." "The dishwasher has DNA from other peoples' food that I am allergic to, can I have a new dishwasher?"
Unsurprising that landlords wouldn't want to rent to people who know the law.
Wait, why no lawyers??
Lawyers litigate? The 1 time I bent to allow a Harvard Law student, she begged out of the lease early (by law here I have to find a suitable replacement) & she rode me endlessly. In the end she had to pay (Wow!) 1 whole extra day, I found great tenants to backfill her lease, but she whined anyway.
Good for her! Sounds like you should try following the law.
I suppose it depends on the lawyer. I've sued exactly one landlord bc he wouldn't give me back my security deposit or provide a reason why it wasn't being returned within the required 3 weeks after my move out date. Other than that (and only bc I was a broke 26 year old who needed that $ back), I've
never had any issues with any landlords that required me to sue. I found out later on that the one i did sue was FREQUENTLY sued bc of failing to do the things he was supposed to by law but I didn't know that until much later on. My landlords since him have been fine.
I try to only have legal problems that I can introduce with "I think I just need you to write a letter because of [problem]". So far, this seems well-received.
I have twice asked lawyers to write demand letters on my behalf, because I knew both of them, and I knew what their specialties were. I'm about ready to have another write one to deal with a government pension issue because he recently won a similar case, and I'm sure the bureaucracy remembers.
Client who speaks only in tech jargon
There's a startling amount of harmony between this list and my "frequent traits of people calling the mental health clinic because their attorney or PO mandated them to also seek counseling." I have a feeling this is not a coincidence.
1. They try to pay you in hamsters is a red flag, because the dollar to hamster ratio is garbage these days. 2. Over the age of 60 with a ponytail is red flag. If they wear sandals it's double flags. 3. If they call you Sport, Champ, Tiger or Brah. All flags.
This applies to dating as well. Teach your children well... Now how to boil the DSM-5 down to a six/seventh grade class and quality life lessons. www.ifeet.org/files/DSM-5-...
I was going to say that the aforementioned client may need an ICD 10 code such as F60.
!! DSM-5-TR "Criteria for Paranoid Personality Disorder (F60.0) A pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others, leading to the interpretation of their motives as malevolent, beginning by early adulthood and evident in various contexts, as indicated by..." The DSM is Cliff's notes big topic.
The :30 Balance Sheet at introduction.
"[30-minute testicle narrative] ... & so the hearing is tomorrow & my lawyer sucks!" Now my first Q is usually: DO YOU ALREADY HAVE COUNSEL?
Testicle narrative? Please explain.
Oh sorry! Was referring to one of the earlier skeets in Popehat's thread ;)
#11 uses the word skeet. ;)
Maybe I’m missing a few details here, but according to your bio you’re a criminal defence lawyer. Does it not stand to reason, then, that a lot of would-be clients might be criminals, or engage in behaviour that would merit criminal defence? These flags don’t seem to have poles from my perspective.
People don’t like questions when they don’t like Their Own Answers☺️😉
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In my law-adjacent job my worst client was a CEO who had fired his big firm and wanted to be very hands-on in his own criminal defense. Conclusion was predictable but we did our part. It must be great to be able to say no.
LOL. Document retrieval or data basing services, I’m guessing? I worked for a legal document retrieval company while in my early 20s. I met a couple such corporate clients. Even with my NAL and fresh out of college status, I could easily predict how well that would end up.
E-discovery and hosting docs for review. We already had the data from the big firm so agreed to take him as a client. His team was a law prof and one of his students. He wanted constant meetings but would then disappear and miss deadlines for productions...
I was in healthcare software…giant core systems and 12-24 month implementations. We had rules too because a bad client, especially a big one like say Kaiser, could have put us out of business. Not all business is good business.
Always leave bad business to the competition.
I didn't appreciate how much practicing law can be like practicing medicine until reading this thread.
Being a paramedic absolutely made me a better lawyer. The other thing that is essentially the same is training new attorneys.
I went to Dr. Google School of Medicine where I studied carefully for a full 5 minutes. Is that not equivalent to a medical license? 🤔
Well, like, that's just like, uh, your opinion, ma'am, but Dr Chat GPT, which has 5 PhDs as well as an MD, diagnoses it differently.
Medicine is one of the few places where, if I have vetted the person and they're not openly obnoxious, I let them take the wheel. I didn't frickin' go to medical school!
My biggest red flag: ”My last 3 doctors were idiots and terrible people, but I know that you will be AWESOME!”
i just think this is typical of all skilled professions that are primarily knowledge based.
Came here to say this!!
After reading this list I am convinced you were approached by Donald J. Trump, who literally committed ALL of these items. You forgot, or haven't got to "Refused to pay for services".
"won't give you a retainer"
Different field, but balking at a retainer, even after being told that they will be refunded any amount not used, is a definite red flag. Most of those don't bother to hire us but when they have it's always been a difficult relationship.
I've now had two clients walk both owing me $20,000 + for services rendered.
Whatever the correct term is, he won't do it.🤣
I dunno, but to my mind, the mob, the IRS, and your lawyer are the ones you really don't want to stiff.
At one point, my firm had so many clients that wouldn't pay us that I ended up specializing in motions to be relieved as counsel. Once I had to go to an arbitration for a client who owed us more money than the amount in dispute in the lawsuit.
Credit check, renegotiated the contract 20¢ on the dollar can be invisible on credit checks.
this whole list also sounds like good reasons not to have someone over for dinner either
Client: I’m going to make an amazing witness! Me:🙄
“When I look that jury in the eye and tell ‘em these cops are lyin’, they’ll know I’m tellin’ the truth.”
So so so many clients who were dead convinced they just had to tell their unfiltered story and the judge would proclaim “you win everything forever!” I understand that non-lawyers don’t know what is important from a legal aspect, but its hard to explain that it almost never goes like that
One of the best pieces of advice I got as a young litigator was to ask potential clients “How do you hope this will end?” If a client won’t be satisfied with even the best possible outcome, it’s best to decline the representation because they’re going to be mad at you no matter what.
This sounds like what's referred to as "motivational interviewing" in psych. Ask the person to describe what they would like to see change in their situation/what would constitute an improvement in outcome for them.
Sort of, sort of the opposite. The law is limited in the remedies it makes available, and people often find those remedies unsatisfying. The goal is to determine whether the potential client is even capable of being satisfied, not to invest them in their spoken outcome.
Ok, fair enough. Though psych remedies are undoubtedly just as limited, providers probably don’t/can’t turn away as many clients as attorneys, so the framework is a bit different, though in both cases involves trying to bring the person’s goals or hopes and realistic expectations into alignment.
I worked in law school student affairs for three years and the best thing my Dean taught me was to ask “what would be your preferred resolution to this situation” (while making no promises). I have used that formulation with my clients and with myself many times since.
It’s such a great question
I know you're just getting started here but so far totally works in medicine too.
...and education.
And IT
yep, everyone is a programmer, because they point and click at home like a pro, or took a semester of python
oh yes!
Yep. Not a teacher ATM, but I love having conversations with random parents and waiting until they’re done word vomiting, then saying “Um… I have a master’s in education, and I’m pretty sure all your assumptions about your child’s teacher are wrong here.”
And pharmacy. Need a refill? Not until you listen to my 10 minute preamble.
When I worked at Private Eye magazine, many moons ago, people (including apparently homeless ones) would visit the office w plastic bags full of documents to try and get the mag to "take up their cause" - i.e. report on their legal case. Long rambling tales, mostly they were suing their own lawyer.
Immediately informs you the other side is mentally ill, and is a narcissist. Insists diagnosis is valid because it was confirmed by a customer or guy they drove in their Uber. Proof is the fact that other side wants a divorce. Won’t accept that this is not relevant to the issues in their case.
You just described all clients.
My least favorite way to begin a visit is to hear “I went to the law library” or “I have a friend who is (lawyer, law student, been arrested 30x) and they say you should do X.
These days, it's "I Googled ...."
Yeah. Except if you’re in the jail you aren’t googling.
OR going to the law library (unless the jail has one). :)
Can’t you just send the latter client back to the “friend” and call it a day? Or does sending them into the arms of a moron constitutes an ethical breach?
You should send this thread to your potential clients. My divorce lawyers presented what they wanted me to accept as an option. They never even suggested it was inevitable. I think they led me on, causing me to fall into the patterns you observe.
How much of law, in practice, is telling people "you can't actually do that/that would be a bad idea"? I know doing research for a case can take a lot of time/effort, but how often does it even reach that point vs hitting a full stop roadblock before that point?
It depends on subject matter. As someone who takes LOTS of calls about defamation, the answer is A WHOLE LOT.
Honestly, defamation *is* really hard to prove. Our laws, rightfully, protect the free speech of people over the hurt feelings or potential damage to reputation of politicians or celebrities.
So funny story, actually this also happens a lot for associates with their older partners. When I was a pup attorney, the number of times I had to go back to my boss and say “the law doesn’t work that way anymore” was, well, more than you’d like lol.
It's funny how often that happens; I don't work in law, but my field is very affected by new medtech, so every so often we all have to remind ourselves Things Are Different Now, lol Here's to hoping I'm less guilty of that as I eventually become the Older Employee!
In my experience, no one summarizes their case in the manner lawyers want them to. bsky.app/profile/hear...
Nope, and it’s actually why having a lawyer is important. People rarely know what LEGAL issue their case actually turns on. They have an emotional investment in a particular part and they will hammer it home all the time, even if it doesn’t have much, or anything, to do with the legal standard
The one intro that always worried me was, “I just did X; was that alright?”
I’m guessing that is never “I just did ‘shut-the-fuck-up’; was that alright?”
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Related: Why so many competent experienced lawyers are leaving the Dept. of Justice. They suddenly find that their formerly reasonable client has turned into one of Those People.
I wouldn’t know about that but I have interviewed around 10 and seen about 25 resumes in the last two months
What a fortunate set of circumstances for you and your firm! And a deplorable situation these ex-DOJ attorneys find themselves in. Their misfortune is your opportunity.
Executive Order incoming