Inane left wing ramblings indeed
Inane left wing ramblings indeed
Hamas just need to free the hostages and surrender. They prefer to let their people suffer.
What's your opinion of the way that Hamas has run Gaza?
Like the Palestinians claiming some ancestral right to Israel despite not being born there? Weird argument
They did attack Israel though. A hugely aggressive provocation with no thought of the consequences and the potential suffering that it might cause their own people.
So what. The history of the world is full of people and countries conquering each other. Your claims are very much contested, but even if they're true, so much time has passed and Israel is so established that it's pointless attempting to get that land.
Note that Israel also agreed to the ceasefire. Hamas did not follow the terms, so Israel continued fighting.
The most important job of a country's leaders is to protect their people. Hamas fails that test on every count. Israel looks after their people.
They're certainly doing absolutely nothing to stop it.
Why would Hamas attack a country that supports them?
Israel certainly puts much more value on Israeli lives than Palestinian ones. How much does Hamas care for the lives of their own people? The biggest threat to Palestinian safety is Hamas.
It's not about equalising the number of atrocities. Israel wants their people to live in peace. Hamas has proven beyond any doubt that they are incompatible with that. To ensure the safety of Israelis, Israel is destroying Hamas. If only H cared as much about their own people.
Good luck with that. It's that sort of rhetoric that prevents peace and prolongs the suffering of the Palestinians.
But elected by the people of Gaza. The actions of Hamas are theirs to own.
We're in agreement. Israel is far from perfect.
I hope that you apply the same standards to Hamas and Iran.
Why limit to this summer? Iran fired a barrage of missiles at Israel. Similarly Hezbollah was firing Israel until they were defeated. Hamas still hasn't surrendered.
Israel has been attacked on 5 fronts. They've managed to defend themselves very well and humiliate their enemies. 10/7 marked a very serious escalation in the conflict. Hamas showed their true colours.
Israel wants peace too, but not with those borders.
How far back do you want to go?
Hamas - 0 elections in 20 years, opposition parties murdered, population repressed and radicalised, chooses to commit huge atrocity against their neighbour and then demand help from the rest of the world when that neighbour decides that they've had enough of them.
Thankyou for a good discussion. I tend to be a bit abrasive on here - the character limit doesn't help. Ultimately, I think that most casual observers of the conflict want peace and for the suffering to end, but how to get to a lasting peace is very tricky given the entrenched positions.
Nonsense
I think that something similar was tried in Lebanon with the UN. Ultimately that ended in failure IMO. I'm not sure how much the Israeli people would trust a similar solution - especially when the risks are so high (e.g a repeat of 10/7)
No. They want to establish a Palestinian state that contains Israel. That's not peace. Previously, they wanted the destruction of Israel. That's not peace either. They are terrorists - and they don't just terrorise Israel, they terrorise the people of Gaza too.
Maybe don't fire rockets indiscriminately at them, and dedicate yourselves to their destruction then. Hamas have always wanted war.
They're doing a great job of helping their people
Jerusalem is likely to be a huge sticking point for both sides
I think that that is reasonable. However, the devil is in the detail. Some sticking points would be that Gaza is separate from the west bank, so geography would complicate things. There are very few countries that are trusted by both sides so control of the DMZ would be an issue
You make a terrible point then. Israel has had many peaceful transitions of power. A strong sign that it is a functioning democracy.
How many free and fair elections have they had in that time? How many opposition parties are there?
Iran, ISIS, Taliban, neither supports democracy or a liberal freedoms.
Most of the people that live in Israel weren't born when it was established. It's the only functioning liberal democracy in the middle East. People like you want to destroy it and hand it over to ISIS.
I would agree with you there. Iran is hugely to blame for the current situation. Sadly, the international community - including many countries that support a Palestinian state - turned a blind eye.
Well. They may not have meant to do it, but they're doing an incredibly good job of achieving it. Give your head a wobble 🥴
It's no wonder that they have a low opinion of them. Hamas are morons. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to get rid of them. Israel has decided that their current actions are what is required to get rid of Hamas. I don't see any other suggestions coming from the international community
What, like Hamas tried to do?
So what. No other party controls Gaza or has a stronger mandate than Hamas.
That's utter nonsense. There are millions of people in Gaza. It's descending into chaos as Hamas lose control and a power vacuum emerges. If Israel wanted to wipe out the population they could have easily done it by now. Removing Hamas from power is not easy. It's incredibly messy
Certainly not in Israel
Would you say that that aid was a good investment?
And how do Gazans get rid of Hamas then?
Comparing Hamas to the Taliban is quite apt. That's who the Israelis are fighting against. Imagine having them as your neighbour
They have never been required to look after their own people as that has always been done by the UN and aid agencies. That has given them much more time to radicalise the population and commit acts of war
'seized power' lol. You meant to say 'democratically elected into power by the people of Gaza'. They have the only legitimate mandate for the people of Gaza. Despite their actions since coming to power, the UN continued to send them billions in aid.
Has Hamas? They've terrorised the people of Gaza and Israel for 2 decades.
What else is there to discuss?
Israel has talked. Hamas knows their terms. Israel rejects any changes that Hamas proposes. That is the current state of negotiations. Hamas refuses to accept them they are opposing peace
Most black south Africans were too. Completely different situation
The time for negotiation has passed. Hamas knows what they need to do. They refuse to do it. When you're losing a war so comprehensively and your people are suffering you should surrender. Hamas are cowards and hate their own people
They still hold hostages and haven't surrendered. So they certainly haven't tried it
Surrender and free the hostages
How did the world pressure Hamas into holding elections? I'm assuming that they shunned as a pariah state and received no funding and support from e.g the UN until they held them?
No. Hamas is. They can get food but choose not to
What is the official position of the democratically elected leaders of Gaza?
What have Hamas done to help their people? The Israeli government may be awful, but at least they are looking after their people
Hamas refuse to feed their people. I'm blaming them.
I would say that it's a fairly 'uncomplicated' - to quote the OP - position. The situation in Gaza is awful. Hamas needs to go. They have no desire for peace and no desire to help their people.
Sadly everyone sucks in this situation. However, Israel sucks less than Hamas.
Israel gave up Gaza to the Palestinians. Sadly Hamas took over and their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. They radicalised the population and regularly attacked Israel. Finally 10/7 happened and Israel decided that it was not possible for Israel to be safe with Hamas as a neighbour.
It's awful. I want Hamas to do something to stop it. I can't understand why they won't. They see their own people starving and know how to get food to them but won't.
What has Hamas done to get food to their people? It is their responsibility to look after their people.
Ok, just the people of Gaza believe that the Jews should be exterminated from their land
Have Hamas mentioned how many of their fighters have died in the war?
What can Hamas do to help their people. It's very sad, but it is the responsibility of Hamas to look after the people of Gaza. Unfortunately, they've never needed to care as they could offload their responsibilities to the rest of the world.
Most Israelis were born there. Very few Palestinians were. Gaza was given to them and look how that ended.
This is very much a case of 'everybody sucks here'. However, Hamas has a stated aim of the destruction of Israel and has radicalised the population. How can Israel ensure the safety of their people while Hamas is still in power and the majority of the people are hell bent on destroying them?
How many Palestinians were born in Israel? It's not their land.
What have her elected leaders done to help her? Why does the world not demand that Hamas help their own people?
Most Israelis were born there. It's not complicated.
If only there was something that Hamas could do to help their people. No one hates Palestinians more than Hamas
Who cares about Kamala. She lost. Was there anything that Hamas could have done to help their people?
If only there was something that Hamas could do to stop this.
Genuine question, which peaceful overtures has Hamas tried?
Notice that Hamas - whose foolishness and thirst for blood escalated this conflict - who have the power to help their own people, are never petitioned.
It doesn't make the pictures of starvation coming out of Gaza any less harrowing though. The war is a result of politicians and leaders failing their people. Hopefully the public pressure that is being applied will lead to improvements on the ground
You just weren't very good at it!
I'm not the one that did stuff to help elect the pro genocide guy. You are.
No. I think that Harris would have done a better job of de-escalating. Trump has allowed Bibi much more leeway than Biden did.
Is the current guy better or worse?
Direct that question at yourself and realise how silly it is
No, the protesters helped that happen. They didn't want it either, but that's what their actions have enabled
Ask Hamas
They definitely weren't. Sadly it's this sort of argument that hugely damages support for the Palestinian cause.
Sadly, they failed to convince the electorate to support their cause and their antics may even have turned people against it.
They managed to get a very much pro-genocide president elected. Who did they actually help with their protests?
No. But it's probably wise to prefer the person who's less-bad for your cause.
Sadly, that's the attitude that has led to the current situation. A terrible failure of politics and pragmatism. Sadly the people of Gaza are the ones that have to suffer for it.
Because the other guy would have been worse for their cause.
Do you think that Trump is doing a better job than Harris would when it comes to de-escalation and protecting the people of Gaza?
Do you think that the protests were a net vote winner for Harris?
The democrats handled the election terribly, but the actions of the protesters protesting in support of the Palestinians IMO helped Trump to win the election.
Does Iran want the genocide too? Let's not forget that they are huge supporters of Hamas and are also complicit in the suffering. Why are there no calls for them to stop the war?
This was a huge issue in the recent American election. Sadly the pro Palestinian lobby failed to convince the American electorate to vote for (and possibly actively campaigned against) the candidate that would have worked to de-escalate the situation.
Sadly the voters who sat on their hands let perfection be the enemy of the good and have now ended up with the current situation.
It's a very important issue for many voters.
Political - not financial. The conflict is a huge issue for many voters.
No one cares less for the Gazans than their leaders. The western world is putting a huge amount of political pressure on Israel to do the right thing yet there is a deafening silence from Muslims around the world about the culpability and the responsibility of the Gazan leadership in all this.
I guess my point is that non space X rockets after that time period haven't been as successful.
I think that you've been a bit selective with your comparisons there. Saturn 1B and Saturn V were both last used in the 1970s.