I expected accelerationist to be ready to use violence against the state but all I’m seeing is ppl continuing to bitch about Dems and refuse to admit they made the wrong choice. I would actually respect the idea of accelerationism more if they were willing to back it up with community protection.

Lots of liberal cope going on here I see

Do you live in a tv?

'i refuse to support democrats but demand they act' is a bizarrely common kind of person

They don't act, so I don't vote for them. It's very simple. They could change the outcome by doing things, but they won't.

"What have they done to earn my vote?" I shout as I watch the flames flick up the walls.

I can see now why I should vote for the people who completely failed to arrest and prosecute the arsonist. 🤡

"Enjoy losing, cry more shitlibs!" = guy who has Poasted himself into being the optimal target for a black-bag squad, with no plan at all for what to do when the black-bag squad his accelerationism has materially aided actually shows up

(And no, 'owning a gun' is not a plan, it is momentary entertainment for guys who have more firepower than you and the legal right to use it on you at least excuse.)

Seriously I’m always baffled when this is the beginning and end of advice.

It's all cosplay. Even my co-workers do it, and I'm like, bro, we've schwacked so many people from 20,000 feet. Why do you think a gun would help you?

Martial virtue does not tend to have such a good time against crew-served weapons

And a Pred with a six AGM payload will end your existence before you finish that YouTube rant out in your truck.

Shit, three guys with a mortar will do it, no need to get spendy

It turns out a gun is not a magic wand, violence isn't a magic spell, and you don't stop having to do politics when you pull a trigger.

Yup. And my thought is always, okay, you somehow successfully fend off the agents trying to capture you. What next?! They’re not gonna stop! Apologies that I’ll keep trying “politics” over that

Well, even if it works, congrats now you're just doing politics with more blood and random death, you never actually stop doing politics.

Sucks they didn't care about Trump burning your house down as much as they cared about participating in genocide

perhaps when your house burns down you can build a better one.

Democrats are flat out saying "we can't do anything unless enough people beg our colleagues", so I have some sympathy for this line of thinking, under the current circumstances. Expecting that the Democrats definitely will act given sufficient demand seems naive though.

Against incrementalism at all costs. Even at the cost of improving things for people.

lol ok

"But you'll support them if they act, right? Right?"

Yeah pretty much

I expect democrats to do their job wither or not I support them actually. I dont get to stop doing work just because customers dont like me.

I will support them when they start acting

"I think the people I elected to do THING should be allowed to do NOTHING and I shall unconditionally vote for them next election and berate anyone that holds these elected officials accountable for their inaction" is a bit more weird don't you think?

Really fucking telling that you find the idea of not supporting a party until they start being worth supporting bizarre

Wow almost as if our elected representatives and the so-called "left" party still represent us even if we didn't vote for them - you know, the bedrock principle of liberal democracy that your simple smooth brain forgot from 5th grade civics?

they think of themselves as like on a spiritually higher plane so that wielding power is sublunary. Endorsing someone actually involved in wielding power would be a blow to their self-imagination/status.

yeah the jealously pouring off the critiques of 50501 is palpable bsky.app/profile/jake...

as a materialist you cannot actually use Biden's Gaza policy as a reason to disengage from electoral politics when it's convenient when the guy's not even in office anymore

Yeah I SO do not understand this stance, Abbot.

"as a materialist" bro you don't even know what you're talking about. Someone who believes in a material basis of history or philosophy is not a robot, they're a person capable of disgust with a system that forces them to choose "genocide" on one hand or "genocide" on another

you're just a calvinist without jesus

You're the one obsessed with punishment of the wicked no matter how many innocents get hurt so actually I'd charge that if anyone is a calvinist here, it's you.

right lmao they got what they wanted! Harris lost! Democrats were punished for genocide. and now we're all fucking hosed because it turns out you can't change the country entirely through 'organizing' but you can do it with control of the federal government bsky.app/profile/azer...

man I wish it were the case that Democrats were punished for genocide. Instead I think they were punished mostly for burrito taxi expensive

I think they got punished for the state of this country (runaway propaganda networks driving misinfo to low-attention voters, a scleric political process being unable to truly make things better, etc.) But that's been an ongoing process for decades, hard to assign blame...

The average American does not really care for foreign policy but the average dem voter does so bit of both tbh

what's your angle here?

I can absolutely understand people’s anger about Palestine, the US’s role in facilitating the genocide, and the way few in power were taking it seriously. Unfortunately losing power to a madman fascist kept the genocide but removed anything good the federal government did

That's not the voters fault, that's the Democrats fault for not listening to the voters. We can never be mad enough at Harris and the Dems.

I thought we wanted Harris to stop being a genocider and care about us. Or is the idea of a Democrat not being a genocider just unfathomable to you?

That's not what we wanted, you don't sound like a leftist at all

I'm genuinely loving this for them. At the end of the day, they know what they did to their own cause. Now I'm going to sit back and watch them get detained, disappeared, and deported. Like Miss Celie said, "The jail you planned for me is the one you're going to rot in."

Yeah, I voted in this election, but taking glee in having people who didn't vote being deported, etc DOES kind of make you a piece of shit. Like, I'm upset about the election turn out too, but wishing fascism on people makes you kind of a fucking fascist.

I don’t care. People being deported were put in harm’s way by members of their own community chasing white adjacency. Maybe those people will vote differently in the future. Or maybe not. It’s not on me.

So poc of trans people should be sent to concentration camps because they voted differently than you? Damn. It doesn't take very much for you to go full blown fascist. If you want to sign up for the GOP, just fucking say so.

This has nothing to do with trans people. That's a strawman. This is about how white adjacent POC chose to vote in ways that put members of their own community at risk. 50 percent of Latinos voted to hand members of their own community who couldn't vote over to fascists.

So you're a Nazi?

If that's how you define it.

Yeah, you seem to be eager for the Gestapo to commit Nazi acts. A pretty basic hurdle to clear towards not being called a Nazi, is to not support Nazi deportations.

I don't give a single fuck about any of these people. You can call me a Nazi all day every day and all it does is make me enjoy this more.

You fascist piece of filth.

pretty damning the way "organizing" doesn't have wielding power as a goal. also they can't even organize lol, DSA can't balance a budget of course they don't move the democrats

Bernie fumbled 2020 and in response these people invented a massive conspiracy and refused to learn a single thing about the electorate. accelerationist libs were fucking paying attention

he just fumbled like a loser

The thing is, if Bernie had won in 2020 they would’ve hated him because he would have actually had to do things. And inevitably those things wouldn’t have been good enough for them. Theory is clean and easy to support but putting things into practice is messy.

If this was a year ago, I think I would wholeheartedly agree, but since the election I have seen comments and statements from Bernie that if any Democrat had said would get them absolutely shredded by the political left. I still generally like him, but he has lost a bit of his luster to me.

A similar thing is happening to AOC as she attempts to achieve things

“They.” “Them.” Plus you’re making up hypothetical situations to get mad at.

let's be fair, Bernie didn't fumble he was merc'd. but he went with it as usual.

none of you gave a solitary shit about the fully predictable harm of a second Trump administration until when people warned you. it's just infantile politics.

I love your broad sweeping statements… the you of 20yrs ago into Situationism was far more interesting. Smoked a little meth in grad school and read some of the edgier English philosophers (you don’t have a second language do ya kid). What actual real world organising have you done? Seriously.

you refused to be guilted and now you are like 'god liberals are such heartless monsters' shut the fuck up

Seriously… what real world, actually interacting with other human beings work have you done to further any political cause. Your thread sure makes it seem like it’s simple, we’re just some dumb fucks who haven’t figured it out…

A lot of this is best resolved by assuming the people in question think they have a God-given right to be the protagonists of any resistance activity, and if they aren't, it can't be 'true' resistance

This is what happens when you have Leninists so deracinated from their Leninism that they don't formally believe in a vanguard party, but automatically assume they are the vanguard as a matter of course It's the same thing evangelicals do with the Bible, probably because it's the same demographic

Every opposition is CIA-backed and fake except for ours

what's happening is the chilling impact of viciously anti-Palestinian policy *domestically* which was a result/risk of Trump's re-election absolutely no one in the scene seemed to consider in terms of their positioning even though it was telegraphed as much as the tariffs bsky.app/profile/rand...

people saying it would be more productive organizing under Trump - not when you're running for your lives you idiots

Biden was doing the viciously anti-Palestinian, anti-Muslim policy *domestically*. He was constantly calling anti-genocide protesters "anti-semitic". Biden built the house, Trump is just living in it.

You refused to be guilted about genocide and now you're like "god I can't believe these leftists thought brown non-Americans are human beings"

Before we can defeat our enemies we must first defeat our allies!

Genociders are not my allies

This is your core value, offering token resistance in the form of platitudes while pretending the rest of us lack object permanence.

We warned you that supporting genocide would lead to this and you decided that killing another 10,000 children was a good idea.

This is the thing to me. Whatever you say about 2020 (and even 2016), the fact is that Bernie was trying to win over a populace and infrastructure that was initially against him and failed. You have to win! You can't just convince yourself of your correctness, you gotta turn that into Ws

At the end of the day you can either enact policy with the mandate of the majority or over it. Doing it the former way usually requires compromises and deals that make you feel bad. But it tends to be better than doing it the latter way.

Not when it comes to capitulating to a fascist dictator. Which is what all this dem budding up has brought to us. They showed us they only care about money and power, and now as a result we are all fucked.

"You have to win! You can't just convince yourself of your correctness, you gotta turn that into Ws" the entire thread from the OP is doing exactly this. did they win? did their "pragmatism" and GOP-courting produce a W?

You're a complete dumb fuck if you believe this revisionist bullshit

People who said they support Bernie because of Medicare for All but didn't care if Trump won and the ACA got repealed or Medicaid got cut are an extremely common type and utterly baffling.

My guess is that they used M4A as some gold standard Democrats could never live up to. I genuinely think a lot of them support Bernie bc he gives them an excuse for the bigotry of their family members. They ride nowhere near as hard for Walz or AOC as they do Bernie, and I think that’s the reason.

The notion that there are a huge electorate of untapped and unactivated socialists just waiting for that special candidate out there is another infuriating thing. Like, there isn't a Trotskyite in Allentown Pennsylvania just waiting for that leftist candidate.

I hope I helped disabuse a lefty friend of mine by pointing out that my trailer park's signage was 5 to 1 in favor of Trump over Harris and asking what these people understood that I, a Harris voter, did not

You have to make it stark and put them in the untenable position of defending Trump voters. It's interesting to see who is willing to do it and who won't

I think a lot of them have conservative family members and don’t want to admit that they voted for Trump bc they love his bigotry. So they invent some grievance politics that proposes that their family members are desperate enough to tear it all down, rather than putting bigotry over class interest.

yeah like the idea that a blue collar white guy in rural PA or WI is just waiting for a conversation with a guy from the internet to realize he's really a communist shouldn't have survived contact with 2020--not with the dem primary results nor with the general election results

It was amazing to see so many Bernie supporters convince themselves that Warren, Klobuchar, and Buttigieg dastardly took out poor old Bernie and ignoring that when it came down to just two men, voters clearly preferred Biden

at least the narodniki had the excuse that they didn't have the example of to learn from

there is apparently not a polite Trump-hating Republican just waiting for the most compromising Dem to come along either

Bernie crushed Clinton in the 2016 primary with working class & rural white male voters. Biden crushed Bernie in 2020 with working class and rural white male voters. There's a common theme there but it's not supporting the liquidation of the Kulaks.

Bernie won Nevada, which is in many ways a bellwether state for Democrats. A great indicator of how strong a Democrat can ne nationwide. The DNC decided to declare South Carolina the deciding state, and the rest was history.

But of course you didn’t change it when in power (quite the opposite - you lurched further right, and let the GOP minority dictate what you would even attempt), and you blame everyone but yourselves for your failures. Useless, spoiled, privileged toddlers blaming their imaginary friend. Fuck off.

Ok but this is a problem yes? That when your politics are “normal capitalist evil versus literal Red Skull evil” there is effectively no way electorally to signal disstatisfaction with (1) without empowering (2), and right now there’s no sense that anyone has input into the direction of the dems

Yeah there is. In the words of a famous Tweet, You [redacted] a Walmart.

It's time to see if the left has the courage of their convictions, or if they've been faking it this whole time like we accused them of doing.

yeah, it's a problem

There are non presidential races. They can go to a march. I knkw that's all a bit weak sauce but so is the argument that you just can't vote against Hitler bc his opponent is merely 55% ok.

That’s not the point, the point is that once one major party is Literally Hitler pretty much all intraparty leverage evaporates because the consequences of losing are so dire!

Like if you had idk a CSU like Republican Party and not voting for the Dems meant there was a reasonable chance CSU won, ok that would suck but there’s a reasonable tradeoff of upside risk versus internal leverage and pols can make intelligent decisions about the cost of alienating XYZ side.

It’d be more like knowing one candidate said “I will disappear your neighbors based on skin color, take away your rights, and make your food poison, and I promise I might stop a war” And another said “I promise I might stop a war, otherwise do some good things” And 🤞 the disappearings won’t happen

And without this you need a sense of actual buy-into the party’s outlook, which the Dems don’t do well because they’ve let the kind of ordinary orgs connecting party to base wither and get Consultanted

In any case i think basically everyone in this fight badly miscalculated how salient I/P actually is politically and how much leverage the pro-Palestinian half of the party had.

My spicier take is the Dems should be more like DSA in a like organizational sense, like you should be able to join and get a email for “vote if you want the dem platform to have THIS resolution” or “join THIS project” or “vote for these candidates who have xyz things they will ask of electeds”

this would literally be illegal in the united states. party organizations can’t direct the voting of elected officials, can’t control who’s on their ballot, and can’t remove people from the party.

good in theory but how do you prevent fascists from joining and subverting the process

they are viscerally unpleasant and uncaring people who can't pretend to be normal or compassionate, this whole thing is them doing the reverse cultural revolution because they can't say slurs and grope the secretary without suffering social consequences

They’re joining/taking over the republicans instead

Sounds like a great thing that someone should help bring to fruition with actions.

They do send out those things. I get emails and surveys. JFC

Oh, I'm writing this one down.

Actually named after John Calvin.

I said it before and I'll say it again, these people have no clue what a materialist reading is, or what praxis is supposed to be, for them the call to "read theory" is used in the same vein as Evangelicals telling you to read the Good Book. The sparknotes of Das Kapital puts you above these people

I'm seeing someone I've been very fond of for at least a decade do this and it's painful. It's like it's more important to her to punish Democrats than -- well, just about anything, seemingly. I don't get who it helps to do this.

If she has conservative family members, I’d reckon she wants to shift blame to Democrats bc acknowledging that her family members are bigots is a stove she just does not want to touch.

No, it's not that at all. It's all about punishing Biden and Dems for Gaza.

Also, where the hell are the building occupations now that the war on Gaza has restarted? We were told for over a year "libs will only care about Palestinians if Trump is in office blah blah blah," and now that Trump is in office, the accelerationists go into hiding.

no they claim they voted for De La Cruz the “much better candidate” whose party said North Korea is good actually 😬😑

www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/n...

So, we got a low-key protest from a couple weeks back so far. That's *something*. Still much tamer than last year for some reason.

republicans represent the grerdy poerverts, Thats their job. democrats job was to represent democracy, instead they spoend all their time with their heads uo the ass of greedy poerverts. Thats not their job

People are also scared of deportation and racist mobs/cop beatings with no legal protection You've cheered this fascist police state escalation for years and now want to talk shit?

but i thought both were the same 🤔

Things went from bad to worse and human trash are complaining that the people actually putting their skin on the line aren't bleeding enough

i mean didn’t you all wanted to “teach the dems a lesson” by not voting even though Harris was pushing for a ceasefire

So all it took was some state intimidation and the movement crumbled? Doesn’t sound like a very committed group of people.

"All it took" was labeling people as terrorists for expressing their first amendment rights? "All it took" was people being abducted off the street and sent to a foreign prison without trial?

who put those people in

Yeah, all it took. I’m certainly glad MLK didn’t fold the minute the cops got violent.

I mean, yeah- all it took. "You survived four years of Trump," right? Right? www.reddit.com/r/Hasan_Pike...

It clearly hasn't crumbled, you fascist prick, but intimidation cools peaceful protest and always has When it turns to less than peaceful protest, I'm just POSITIVE you will be cheering the action

What a ridiculous person you are.

I thought we had a fascist police state last year? Why are the demonstrations so much tamer now (when they actually do take place)? Did something change?

Yes. thats why Trump has had such an easy time. They were left ready for him to unleash

If the left were that influential, really dumb of you to ignore them

The point was to pressure the Democrats to stop supporting genocide, under the theory that they MIGHT listen. We are under no illusion that the Republicans will listen, so what would the point be?

So you understood that there was never any chance of your cause having any success under a Republican administration? Sounds like it was imperative that they lose!

It apparently also had no chance under a Democratic administration, either. Do you want to win again or not? If yes, the Democrats must become an anti-genocide party. If no, continue blaming those of us who oppose genocide. It's up to you.

The same thing happened when Trump increased drone strikes 500% over Obama no one cared about what was the most important thing in the world in 2016

That restarted again!

My conclusion since the election is that all of those people are right wingers at heart, like most Americans - they really wanted Trump to win, but they couldn't say that out loud

Idk if they’re conservatives, but I think many were raised conservative and consequently hate the Democratic Party by default. Many of them also don’t want to admit Trump is worse bc it means that their family members don’t give a fuck about the causes these leftists care about.

Trump is worse, but that doesn't mean progressives and leftists were suddenly going to be okay with voting for the other pro-genocide candidate. If the Democrats want to win, they have to stop supporting genocide. The debate is over. Accept this fact or continue to lose.

…They literally won last time while remaining an ally of Israel, so this argument doesn’t hold up.

When?

We literally armed Israel during the Yom Kippur War.

An extremely stupid conclusion

And I'm right

You need to be right so you can pretend your genocide is acceptable.

They are making people up to get mad at because they feel impotent to make change, and the only people who seem to be doing anything are the leftists they’ve radicalized themselves against. A small and angry faction. The actual Democratic party loyalists are pissed at the party.

It's just next level vile to call people who were beaten, harassed and arrested for protesting a Holocaust, Trump supporters. It's disingenuous and disgusting but it's about the moral level of the average liberal so I'm not surprised.

Your brain is made of cheese

You can just support MAGA outright man, nobody's stopping you

We didn't want your genocider, we don't want the other for the same reason

accelerationists have always been a very small minority, but useful to the Russian campaign to elect Trump so their on-line messaging got big time boosted to give the impression of size, which in turn encouraged IRL actions which then got over covered etc, now Russia has pulled the megaphone away.

have you checked in on how none of the Democratic party has decided to be vocal about Gaza now? they were never going to be. You're a fool

Israeli strike destroys part of last fully functioning hospital in Gaza City -patients forced to flee (USA gave billions to Israel who has free college education/ National healthcare; Palestinians happy they voted for Trump -wants to clear Gaza & build vacation spots?) www.cnn.com/2025/04/13/w...

Being against supporting a genocide is really easy, actually. Sorry it wasn't a moral line you were unwilling to cross.

demanding action is literally engaging with electoral politics even if you don't like the way people do it

This thread mostly convinces me that there is a strain of Democrats who are fucking rocketing into fascisms. The “enjoy the camps” crowd scares me as much as MAGA.

x.com/AnasAlSharif... preparing a report on the evacuation of the Baptist Hospital, Israeli warplanes targeted it, and the moment of the bombing was documented, resulting in the destruction of a number of its buildings, despite it being the only hospital operating in Gaza with limited capabilities.

They're just jealous that the libs can organize a massive nationawide protest in two weeks while they've been circle jerking to the idea of an ML revolution for years and still hasn't even achieved a broken Starbucks window.

Have I got the 2 hour long video essay about envy for you.

so the protests successfully took back power then, right?

Dude honestly. Like just go to the big group of people you've been hoping to mobilize and talk to them maybe some of them wanna join your thing

"If I have to convince you, I don't want you" seems to be a common stance

Meanwhile, the fascists took over mainstream media, social media, the government, and spent decades hard at work with think tanks and radicalizing the normies because they knew it was important to convince people.

I don't think the rightwing *invented* leftist purity as a psyop but there's like a 95% chance they exacerbated it as one

I mean fair

I'm sure they're absolutely giddy that the left these days talks about how having power and talking to people is for cringe wine moms or something

I think they see it as a cool exclusive social club of Better People that they're in, and they would be disgusted by the thought of inviting anyone else lol It's like a super exclusive ego-massaging fraternity to them

Right. Like, how can you gatekeep The Movement if you're... not really the ones moving anyone? The movement is happening without them and their input because they're off putting and uninterested in doing the work of taking their message to the people.

Are you ready? generalstrikeus.com

jealousy is a strange way to put it man

It's 100% jealousy - anyone who really cares about making change happen won't make fun of the mass demonstrations for something they Might do in the future, they would just go out there and help make sure they last

I saw a prominent one say, “Yglesias is dumb and he only has influence because he flatters the priors of elites in power,” and all I could think was, “so you’re mad that your arguments aren’t persuasive to those elites?”

Have Democratic Party loyalists been trained to think asking elected officials do stuff for the people is "outside of normal"?

I support Democrats when they do things worth supporting.

so you’re just an angry reactionary. got it 👍

Sorry, I was gonna vote for Kamala but the parliamentarian stopped me

Too many rules and norms prevent me from voting for them. 🤷

Murc’s law is immutable and absolute Might as well ask a fish how the water is

Elected officials are supposed to do their fucking jobs, I don't know what to tell you.

That's literally how democracy works

I dunno: these folks were more correct about what the Democratic party is and actually cares about than thousands of loud "vote blue no matter what" folks.

💯. At the same time, Resistance libs were more correct about the threat Trump posed and the degree to which he was in Putin’s thrall. A big tent is necessary to defeat fascism. The key is to collaborate *temporarily* and without ceding ground on the bigger picture.

Bro liberals literally financially supported trump in the primaries because yall thought he would be easy to beat, this revisionist bullshit isn't going to help yall.

That’s a wholly different and unrelated point. I also wouldn’t consider myself a liberal. Certainly not in the sense in which you’re employing the word, at least. I do think a temporary alliance with liberals—i.e., a popular front—will be necessary to bring the fascists to heel. That’s my point.

Look, you might be a lib, you might not. If not, good for you. If you're not a liberal but you think working with them is the key to stopping fascism, you're gonna want to learn some history. Liberals historically have supported fascists over communists and socialists. Fascism is their lesser evil.

Liberals in germany embraced proto-fascism in order to stop socialist movements, directly enabling the rise of the nazis. Liberals in the US have assisted countless fascist coups abroad to kill socialist movements. It should be really obvious who's side they're on.

Liberal institutions enabled Nazism, no doubt. I’m not talking about aligning with institutions, though, I’m talking about aligning with individuals in a popular front. You say you read history, so you must know that popular fronts have long been the most reliable weapon against fascism.

Sure, but "libs" are not a popular front. The way you do that is by getting people to unite under *explicitly leftist* causes that try to improve their material conditions. A return to the status quo isn't good enough, it'll just wind back here again.

Right, a popular front consists of ALL opponents of fascism, not just libs. That’s the point. I agree that capitulation to capitalism will only lead us back here, which is why the alliance must be temporary. Once the fascists have been ousted, we can & should go back to our respective factions.

The libs who would align with MAGA have already done so. The ones who haven’t need to be welcomed into the tent yesterday and told that our disagreements, while substantial and in many cases irreconcilable, need to take a backseat for a bit so we can give the country a much-needed enema.

Also, we're not talking about libs aligning with MAGA, we're talking about fascism. The vast majority of resist libs were fine with Joe Biden's concentration camps. Their problem is that they want a different fascist in charge, and working with them is not gonna help anyone.

MAGA is a fascist movement. “Bidenism,” “milquetoast liberalism,” whatever you want to call it, isn’t. Not all shitty political arrangements are fascist.

Bro, Biden was running concentration camps, arming and enabling a holocaust, and black-bagging protestors. Kamala said she'd do the same and also adopted trump's border policy talking points from 2016. Not all shitty political arrangements are fascist. Both American parties are.

lmao no, "resistance libs" were very much NOT "more correct" about the threats of fascism than leftists

I cannot count how many left-wing voices I have heard discount Trump as “more of the same” and more or less unexceptional while either downplaying or discounting completely the Putin connection. You don’t have to be Blue MAGA to see such voices were off base on both counts.

This isn’t to say that resistance libs were right about EVERYTHING; on the contrary, they were dead wrong on the most important points (e.g., that Mueller or anyone else would come to save the day; that institutions would ultimately hold, etc.). No one group is going to be right about everything.

They had no unique stance or view on trump that the average person didn't always have. A big tent is how we go lt here but it always seems to exclude actual leftists and push right wingers who wish trump was a bit more professional

To be clear, I’m not talking about electoral politics, where the Left is very much treated as personas non grata in this country; I’m speaking about what needs to happen on the ground with no DNC gatekeepers to keep everyone in line. I do think libs and leftists had broadly different expectations.

No worse than Dems insisting not voting for whichever Dem candidate is equal to voting for some specific other candidate, even if the vote wasn't cast for that specific opponent.

nah that’s a far more coherent and consistent political strategy than whatever this is, and also objectively true.

"objectively" lmao no

Schrodenger's leftist: we aren't important enough to cater to by changing any policy, but simultaneously so important that all election losses are our fault

omg this. "we want to spend our time and money courting the right wing" followed by "the left failed everyone by not voting for us"

I refuse to support Democrats who take AIPAC money, because AIPAC is the lobby for apartheid and genocide. The number of Democrats who accept that money means I end up not voting for them. The problem isn't me, the problem is apartheid and genocide and Democrats who enable it. Take a stand.

I mean, I don't support them in part because they're do nothing controlled opposition clowns. It's such a thoroughly incompetent takeover that it's hard to not yell at them about obvious shit they could've done

I mean, I get that, but presumably if they actually *did* engage in meaningful opposition, you'd be more open to voting for them, hypothetically?

Some of my good friends at democrats 😏😅 but yeah. I'm not bonkers, and I don't think I'll survive accelerating bs. But they do actually have to live down the controlled opposition reputation and actually fight back realistically

Of course. I'm also not opposed to working with people I disagree with ideologically in the resistance of fascism and we can fight about things later- drawing the line at other fascists. I think we should all still be able to critique each other as well for inadequate or disingenuous actions too

Maybe more people would support democrats if they did their fucking job?

Lmao, trying to posture over people who do not support Dems as they refuse to oppose fascism and/or actively assist fascists and demand Dems NOT do that is just an admission you want to lash out at anyone who opposes fascism.

Don't worry Dems, I am here to ensure that the DSA and Pro-Palestine movement never have any material gains!

That's a logical stance to have my dude. If you want someone to act and they refuse to, why would you ever support them?

Imaging thinking demanding action from people who are supposed to be acting to represent you is wrong

We voted for them, despite how disgusting of an action it was. They don't seem to want our votes though.

yeah dude i don't support them because of their literal decades of inaction

The actual base of the party doesn’t either. This thread is like finding the Democrats have a Trotsky faction (Maoist tendency) more than anything else. Like, anyone who has been around leftist politics even a bit knows what extremist dead-enders sound like.

"i refuse to offer the left anything but demand they vote for me anyway" is a bizaarrely common kind of person

Ever wonder why they refuse to support Democrats and if them not acting might factor into it?

I would support them if they acted

.... see heres the problem. you demand support for nothing.

Expecting our public servants to actually earn our support through action is bizarre? Goddamn you liberals really do yearn to be nothing but fawning serfs for aristocracy and landed gentry, don't you?

it's not bizarre at all, politicians entire job is to do things that make you want to vote for them. supporting them when they don't act is what's weird.

well become being a part of something, caring about things, is so very cringe, a very on-line generation who's politics came from South Park and Family Guy where Republicans are an unmentioned evil off stage but all the jokes are reserved for cringey libs

Don't project little guy

I think on some level they’re mad that the thing that might galvanize the public is economic conditions and not Theory about the Evils of the American Empire

Ah yes leftists famously uninterested in economic conditions. Truly a genius at work here.

Instead of describing leftists as a large grouping, I think they are just talking about people they find annoying that post a lot.

I mean they literally wrote something entirely different from what you just said

it's almost as if history is driven by material conditions, i wonder if there's a term for that...

maybe material history? nah hang on i'll workship this a little bit more

hmmm maybe like factual both-sidesing?

Turns out it's really driven by *perceived* and not *actual* material conditions and the white resentment that ensues, at least in the United States.

this is an entirely deranged thing to say lmao

More to the point, material conditions *largely driven by Trump killing free trade and federal jobs mostly held by libs*

This has got to be a bit because I refuse to believe anyone is actually this stupid. Lol

Which of the evils do you think is just a theory? What dead people don't count?

Nah, apartheid and carpet bombing brown people are evils too big to hide from the part of the electorate the Democratic Party must turn out to vote for it to win elections. They don't think of it as "evils of the American Empire." They just know its white racism and they won't elect it.

What are these people’s names, Jake? Since they actually exist and all.

Considering the relative silence about the deportations and black bagging vs everyone freaking out b/c their 401(k) got jolted, this is demonstrably true Like sorry, but the average American really is just as shitty as leftist critique says. There is no virtuous American proletariat- 1/

-That is secretly holding solidarity with marginalized groups. Hell, a lot of marginalized groups don't care unless it directly affects them. But the bleeding heart liberals, there's some sympathy there. But maybe a slightly larger percentage as the rest of the population 2/2

I think the reason many like to think this is that they want to believe that their family members are secret leftists who would stop considering immigrants subhuman if they got free healthcare. As if the most ruby-red state doesn’t have 39% of its population on Medicaid.

The fact that a vast majority of these types are naive white people is a factor too. It's why they obsess over proving there's secret socialists in West Virginia (3% Black) instead of Mississippi (36% Black). "Peepaw will stop saying the N word if he got free healthcare" is a pipe dream.

In a nation of 350 million people, with an insanely fucked up media environment, I think significantly fewer people will know about any of this than either of us would guess. I know people who have a better media diet than most and you mention Abrego Garcia and they're like "who?" You mention...

El Salvador and they're like "what?" Its not because they're not paying attention, its because their media, their relationships, their sources, are different than ours. So we don't cut them off and say they don't care, we spend the time to educate and inform.

I didn't say to cut them off. And yeah, most people don't know, by design But how many don't know b/c they are passively receiving propaganda vs how many are willingly receiving propaganda The black bagging is easy to ignore b/c it's not in their face or being talked about breathlessly on the news

Tariffs and the market on the other hand are getting wall to wall coverage, and even if it wasn't, people notice when things cost more and their retirement funds are shit

The fact that the black-bagging isn't wall to wall coverage as being this extraordinary crime, the LEAST radical solution being mass impeachment and prison sentences, is maddening to me.

You're a fucking moron. The corner stone of marxist theory is the inevitable crisis. The theory is for people to understand what is happening why and thus how to build a better world. Instead of replacing people and thinking it will fix the issue the issue is the economic system So no. Not mad

About that. Mad, that stupid liberals think they're doing something revolutionary. By going and waving signs around with the polices permission Go pick up a history book and tell me when that has ever affected change anytime in history. And you guys are supposed to be the smart adult in the room

how many examples do you want? the selma to montgomery marches, the sunflower movement, vietnam protests, the salt march, the christian association, the singing revolution, the march first movement... maybe you should read a bit more?

Lmfao If you think the Montgomery marches were done with the protection of the police maybe you should read more If you think they alone got the voting right act passed, again maybe read more The Vietnam protests were not all non violent and scared the admin enough to think they'd need the troops

so your idea is that the actions of nonviolent protest becomes invalidated the moment people also do violent protest?

No I quite literally said n was very clear in what I said and thats peaceful protests with the protection of the police ALONE have NEVER affected change That doesn't mean that they are not important, but they need to be part of a strategy of BROADER strategy And what happened last weekend WASN'T

except that you weren't critiquing the lack of organization, but the mindset of liberal protestors, framing it as if they weren't achieving anything in principle

I said they weren't doing shit waving signs They won't accomplish shit And they haven't Guess I was right

not really, what makes you think that?

Requested in Vietnam in america to put down civil unrest if they sent a couple hundred thousand more troops to go die, so they didn't send em leading to the end of the war Peaceful protests with the protection of the police n authorities, alone, has never affected change Sorry

i mean unless you have examples of nonviolent protest that failed to effect change because they didn't have a violent component, you're basically just guessing

The Vietnam protests failed until they became violent. Usually protests that become violent become violent because non. Violent protesting failed The government was scared. They would need the troops here due to the escalading violence from protesters There is your proof

the problem is that they didn't fail prior to violence you're arguing that the change was contingent on violence. but we can just as easily see the violence as circumstantial

I see it as necessary as the riots n burning buildings pushed the civil rights act Violent street fighting for us the new deal, 8 hour work weekends off child labor n occupational safety, abolition etc etc etc Never starts violent but it's the thing that brings change

Again, I am not just talking about protests. Protests can be a useful part of a broader strategy That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about people acting like a single tactic with no broader strategy of waving signs with police compliance and protection is radical or works

The salt march were breaking the law And a completely different dynamic as was the singing revolution, fighting foreign occupiers so nationalism helps. Not applicable here And who knows if the singing revolution would have succeeded if not for the coup failing in 1991

now you're just jumping for reasons to disagree

No, I'm pointing out reality. It's not a huge jump or any jump really

i mean, it's a jump to go to 'well we don't know what would have happened if the coup didn't fail' we can say that about anything - it's kind of substance-less

Selma march: cops, dogs, truncheons. Vietnam protests: Kent State killings, much police violence. Your ahistorical approach to right-centrist propaganda is… inept. If you want to lionize moral cowardice, maybe you better try harder.

if you want to argue that circumstantial violence tells us about the ineffectiveness of non-violent movements in general, you're going to have to work harder

No, I don’t. Non-violence has NEVER defeated tyranny, full stop. Why would I work to convince a toddler-playing-grownup of anything?

i mean if you just convince yourself that that's the case, it's not surprising you refuse to believe anything else but that doesn't make it true - it's just a bit childish

You haven't listed a single example of when peaceful protests With the consent and protection of the state and state security services did anything So I think the burden of proof is on you in this one

the problem is that you just interpret the examples i've given as falling outside of your criteria but that's more of an issue with you and your criteria than anything: consent of the state is sort of irrelevant -

That is demonstrably untrue.

Only if you are willing to stretch the truth to fit your performative, ahistorical nothingburger. Run along, child. You can take credit for the win when we win it for you.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...

wait i thought we only cared about economiv conditions and that made us racist

Who's gonna tell bro that the evils of the American empire is directly tied to the economic conditions we all live under today Or is this something he has to learn himself

So much of the theory is built off materialist impulse, yet when people act off that concern they get mad in the "no, not like that!" way. Like, the liberals protesting economic destruction aren't mad about tax hikes, they're mad about programs designed to help other people getting destroyed.

Do we do that? When? Be specific.

How do you look at those liberals who, even if imperfectly, have some amount of community focus and decide they're actually the enemy? No, dummies, they're your allies if you'd just put the work in.

Criting the stupidity of people who think they're being revolutionary when they're waving signs isn't thinking they're the enemy. It's trying to explain to them how to actually affect the change they act like they want to affect Then they get mad and start talking shit every time

you should be more specific with what people *should* be doing bc everytime i see this kind of take i come away with the impression that there is nothing that personally satisfies a revolutionary until the wine moms start to pick up black market rifles and shoot up a courthouse

Maybe its just hard to hear us when your fingers are in your ears and you’re scream singing “LA LA LA, CANT HEAR YOU LEFTISTS”

not particularly, i think you guys are intentionally vague

Yeah, we’re so vague we hold protests where we explicitly say what we want and then hold big “uncommitted” voter movements until finally the idiot drops out of the race and they just replace him with someone who says she isnt changing a damn thing. Then some of you centrist idiots start a movement

telling those same idiots not to even try to do anything even slightly good for people who need it because MAYBE THEY WONT GET CREDIT. And leftists say JFC THATS HORRIBLE.

Vague. Incomprehensible. No clue what leftists want.

We're not vague, this guy's understanding of what is going on is based off of what he sees on MSNBC and he ignored my response because then he cannot continue acting like we're vague, so he ignored it because of the cognitive dissonance Sad

So true and unbelievably frustrating. For what its worth I admire your honest attempt at connection

That's not how a revolution happens. That's just reactionary bullshit. It takes a lot of hard thankless work. Everyone wants to be a hero. Everyone acts like this is a movie. If the revolution takes a courthouse, it's because it has some strategic purpose and there's an organization

Behind it. Crafting strategy tactics getting feedback updating tactics strategy It requires organizing. That Wine mom should go join for the socialist rifles of america or the john brown society or another left wing militia group Be prepared to protect her community or for whatever else comes

It's gonna take people making food growing food. Taking care of people sick old people injured people

"who think they're being revolutionary" LOL you fuckers never do this, do you

Do what exactly? Go wave signs around and cos play as revolutionaries? Sometimes, but never as the only strategy, because we've studied revolutions n revolutionaries and we understand that just waving signs accomplishes exactly nothing Do you ever have anything intelligent to say?

Haven’t met one who didn’t put decorum and process ahead of everything they piously claim to believe. ESPECIALLY the “let’s work together” bullshit. They actively resist “the work” until it succeeds, and try to coopt it and take credit. Y’all are what you are, and always have been. own it.

I'm confused by this response.

I think you described liberals so well when trying to criticize Marxists that they took you at your word and piled on more criticism of liberals.

Apparently I was confused by yours! I apologize.

Sorry. I thought it was pretty clear.

Even worse: the economic conditions of the middle class, not the valorized exploited

What middle class?

We're comrades, but I am not a Leninist, I'm a liberal. The American middle class is the wealthiest large group of people in human history. That we fail a bunch of people in our society is only a crime because we clearly have enough for all. My opinion. Let's get rid of the fascists.

they're the kinds of losers and haters that only showed up to our leftist events in the 90's to yell at the other tankies or Trots. they will never have power or popularity and are best ignored.

We tolerated them in the 90's because...well otherwise no one at all would show up to our events, the left needs to unlearn this habit!

And you're a white man who knows damn well that you personally won't be affected by the glut of death that would follow the acceleration you desire. Those are all brown and trans people that will die so why should you care right?

you don’t have to side with the Democratic Party at all you know? It’s not surprising you’re struggling to grasp a political world outside your capitalist restraints. The difference between you and me is that I’m not a coward, intellectually or otherwise. I will fight and die for my people