The neurodivergent experience of asking someone for feedback and genuinely wanting feedback and being frustrated when they just say “it’s great!” vs when they ask you for feedback and you invest time/energy in providing thoughtful feedback and they get upset you didn’t just say “it’s great!”
I used to be a literary reviewer for poetry & short form fiction, and I was fucking brutal, but extremely honest I took that with me, when I went college; did it late, and my writing & English professors would defend me from the hurt feelings of students, like, "look... he's harsh, but he's right"
The worst was when I took a creative writing class with my then wife, and I was honest with her work too. The other students couldn't believe how 'mean' I was Someone tore a story of mine apart, but the professor was like, "I'm sorry, but you're just being mean, and none of it is honestly relevant"
Yes! This! Feedback is considered mean by so many people. THEN DON’T ASK FOR FEEDBACK I was asked for feedback after coming back to and re-acclimating the office after covid (“tell us what you think/ need” etc) and when I gave feedback I was called insubordinate and HR talked to me 😐
In that writing class, someone just put, "I didn't like your ending", so I asked for them to elaborate, and they just went, "I didn't think it was good", which tells me nothing I responded, "endings aren't for everyone, but if you can't even say what's wrong, then why should I bother changing it"
At my first job; hotel front desk, there was a notebook to write feedback in, or notes for corrections... it got taken away cause other employees complained about my "reminders" I mean, after 3 times reminding them to, "please put receipts in audit's box", I started using the red pen
I used to be in academia and this was SO important for improving writing. Peer reviewing is critical and super helpful and I became so so appreciated of the people who took the time to give me thoughtful feedback that drastically improved my work I HAAAATE when people ask and then get defensive af
*appreciative (obv but still)
I think you may not be the neurodevergent one. Social construct requires us all to protect each other's ego so interactions are mostly pretend and full of lies. You are honest so you expect honesty back but societal rules are against that.
Wut
I don’t understand either tbh
I right clicked, hit, "translate", and it unalived itself so 🤷♂️
It’s absolutely wild that asking for what you want directly and saying what you actually mean is “divergent” from social standards and neurodivergent people are the weird atypical ones for not playing or adjusting to the hidden layer of “guess what I really mean” in social interactions. That’s all
Yeah, if people just said things directly everything and I literally mean every fucking thing would be easier.
OH MY GOD YES. I always want to yell at people ‘don’t you know we could solve all these problems if y’all just spoke DIRECTLY about what you want and need?!’
Gawd, that speaks to me.
Such a relief to hear that articulated so well.
I was just called blunt and cold for this very thing. If you say what you mean without subtext you often get “whoa there, calm down buddy.”
But if you provide TOO much subtext they also react like you are being overwhelming and over explaining and it’s just lose-lose. Trying to anticipate and softly navigate their defensiveness so that they believe what you said IS what you meant without malice is just exhausting is all
They also manage to misread subtext where there is none, leading to additional exhaustion before responding to anything from trying to predict all the possible ways something can be misinterpreted (and yet they always find more ways)
I've deduced that NT's speak in lies. And they expect everyone else to also be liars. But the more words you use, the MORE of a liar, the bad kind, you are.
I think we take the concept of "lies" quite literally, whereas allists have negative connotations for the concept, as opposed to various types of mistruthin' that are acceptable and even necessary, and therefore officially "not lies" even though they're statements contrary to fact. Intent matters.
I read something that posited that the whole purpose of developing language is to facilitate lying. A cave-dweller doesn't need language to describe events as they are; they can just point. Im sure it's a just-so story, but it is interesting to think about.
i think lies have a specific intent behind them. NT ppl usually have a common cultural understanding of what is an actual lie and what is simply said because that is how things are done. declining offered valuables on the first offer is the first thing that comes to mind.
I remember my mom screaming at me about lying to her because I answered her question but it wasn’t the whole answer, therefore it was lying by omission or a white lie. Messed with me so much. I could not figure out when a lie was to save friendships or when it was me being a terrible person.
So I gave up trying to navigate that. Now I do mental gymnastics to figure out how to tell the truth without sounding like a dick. The worst is telling someone their ugly baby is cute.
Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to call it lies. But I have found the second part to be true. The more I try to explain, the worse it is. I've learned to just shut up if a brief explanation doesn't clear things up. It might to hurt leave things misunderstood, but less than what would follow.
It makes me laugh that it literally took *years of repeated social trauma* for it to occur to me that my friends might not share my instinct to be 100% sincere 100% of the time lol
I spent years, even though I'm neurotypical, figuring this out as a child because I come from a religious family.
I guess I'm just never gonna figure out when to shut the fuck up and say "great!" Sometimes my friends even elbow me in the ribs and tell me to just STFU and say "Great!" (These are good friends . . . )
If you can, you have to consider whether your words will be thought of as unkind or more than necessary to get your point across. There's something to be said for framing your comments as if you're trying to be as polite as possible.
I feel like I'm required to tiptoe across a field of eggshells to avoid offending someone and frankly, it's exhausting. I'm more prone to just letting them be offended and think I'm a jerk. It's not a great strategy for winning friends and influencing people, I must admit . . .
It's not as hard as it sounds. It's a matter of degree. Think about what you want to say and then think of a way to say it that is closer to neutral. I have a hard time believing neurodivergent people are incapable of tact.
I’ve never thought of myself as neurodivergent although I suppose it’s possible. But honesty is my prime core value. I want the truth from others & I absolutely hate having to tell even little white lies to others. Some people will do anything to avoid conflict, I will do anything to avoid lying.
You just might be autistic then…
Heh. Considering how corruption and lying is so normalized in our society I can see how one might come to that conclusion. But I have just seen how lies, even white lies told in kindness, are destructive. If people were more receptive to truth we would all be living in a better world.
Oh no I agree but it seems like inability to tell lies is often associated with autism
True. That’s more telling about our current society than anything else. Lying is so normalized. But ask me where Anne Frank is being hidden, I would have no trouble at all lying my ass off. I just really, hate the kind of lying that is so commonplace in business, politics and even relationships.
I think you're confusing lying with tact.
It's not a lie when you tailor your words with tact to avoid a fight or hurting someone.
YES! 😏
Ah yes performative organizational behaviour like the oft-quoted ‘collaboration’ and ‘consultation’. You come at me with a request…you better strap in for feedback and investment!
You could, however, learn to communicate with people in the way they prefer.
I agree with that, and that totally contributes to inclusion and diversity. I wanted to share that if the only expectation for feedback is to receive « that’s great! » and nothing more from my time to review/contribute then what’s the point in asking for feedback.
The point, for some people, is that they crave affirmation and praise because they haven't gotten it in their lives very much, if at all. People who grow up being told they're awful, for example, sometimes want nothing more from people than validation.
sobering comment there. thanks. ☮️✊
There are, unfortunately, some very messed up families where children grow up, if not physically abused, with constant mental and emotional abuse telling them that they're worthless pieces of garbage, so they crave the opposite their whole lives until they find it in a fulfilling way.
I am too wordy, yes I have that problem, it gets me into trouble so yeah I might be tempted to just say it's great even though I might go ahead & delve into specifics. But there is no way to predict a person's reactions. When we are not seeing them IRL those subtle visual cues are just not there.
In general, especially if you don't know the person well, neurotypical people who aren't jerks don't want bald-faced unadulterated truth in terms of an evaluation. They want it given to them in a polite way that still says what needs to be said.
I feel attacked and validated at the same time.
I've made a habit of saying something like "I'm going to give you actual feedback I think may be helpful because I respect you and think that's what you have asked for. Tell me now if it's not." It gets an occasional weird look, but it works.
Look at that blue sky today. I can understand the frustration. We intake so much on social media that we skim over a story or a question about a subject and can't stop due to the headline on the next article. Perhaps one of these days we will slow down and communicate with each other.
Feedback is a double edged sword and I for been working long enough you know that’s an easy way to lose your job.
Omg i feel this so much
Feedback is devilishly hard to give AND receive. One of my favourite mentors said "Feedback is someone who cares enough about you to piss you off while trying to help you be better."
Right? I feel like way too many people were never taught what constructive criticism is or the purpose. They're not looking to improve or grow, just empty platitudes or validation. Which is fine and totally valid, but maybe just COMMUNICATE THAT? And give people genuine feedback when they ASK?
That person possibly never learned tact or to tailor his comments to the person and caring about how they might take things.
Oh my God literally this struggle is real and being undx for a million years and not understanding the gap was a big annoyance. I swear it's the NTs who have the disability, not us
ya... I frequently ask for feedback on ideas I have and just get either 'that sounds good' or 'if you think it'll work you should try it' and I just want to scream...
of possible reasons. The reasons depend on things that are too numerous to list on a comment here. If they don't know you're neurodivergent, they might assume you really want a quick answer because that's generally the thing that's done.
If you're asking people outside your frame of reference, they might literally not know how to answer any other way. If you're talking about an industry specific thing where people should know about what you're asking, and you aren't specific, you won't get a detailed unvarnished answer for a number
and then ppl complain that nobody ever gives feedback anymore and artists are so entitled & stuck & never going to improve (a real complaint i saw somewhere) someone once told me they really liked getting my feedback during crits because it was straight and to the point. i think about that a lot :)
Just going to leave these here. Ableism against Autistics and the ND community is a pervasive issue that does not get talked about enough. There are things all of us can do to communicate better, but always placing the burden on NDs to conform and accommodate without meeting us halfway is ableist.
It's almost worse when they actually try to give feedback because then what comes out is like 80% apologies and walkbacks.
Maybe it's just me but maybe an ND thing too... when I ask for feedback IDGF about anyone's "opinion", I'm not looking for validation, I just want my work to be high quality. I take feedback and weigh it out against what I already know, then adjust accordingly (or not) aiming for quality.
Most NT folks are looking for validation. Their work can be total garbage but as long you make them feel special, that's all that matters. ND folks have never fit in and we've given up on acceptance, so we focus on ingergrity instead.
On the inverse, when people ask for MY feedback, I've learned to say "You dont really want my opinion". The brave souls who insist ALWAYS regret that decision. When I am done, there are stunned faces, a moment of silence...then someone sarcastically says "geez, tell us what you REALLY think!"
Are you incapable of learning tact and how to say things that won't illicit such a negative response?
People used to say to me, when I was younger and must’ve looked like an easier target “Why don’t you tell us what you REALLY think?“ But now that I’m older and tougher, I’ve been waiting for someone to say that, so I can reply “Funny, I thought I just did. Let me try to make that clearer for you.”
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
So, you're now looking for an excuse to be unkind?
I think part of the issue is defining "unkind". If someone asks my opinion, and my opinion is that there are problems, and I state that opinion...is that "unkind"? The theme of this post is that for ND people, saying "It's nice, I like it" is actually unkind. Because we want real useful feedback.
I have learned to be more aware of people's feelings, which is why I generally dont give feedback anymore. One of the #neurodivergent hallmarks is our social awkwardness - Bluntness being a common trait. But why do some get to make the rules of social acceptance and others don't? Guess what...
...Zero Neurotypicals have ever given a shit about MY feelings. They assume they are being "kind" but they have no clue becaue they are self-serving sheep mindlessly following some unwritten rules and acting as enforcers by shaming those who don't conform to their standards. (Tact? What?)
think of it is how societies "get along". That's the whole "unwritten rules" thing. Avoiding saying anything that might upset someone, hence not going into detail about criticism, is just a "thing" in general society, most of the time. Germany is one exception.
You're taking this in a way it's not intended just like neurotypical people take your kind of honesty the wrong way at times. I don't know what to do with a phrase like "self-serving sheep" because I equate that with people who are usually conspiracy theorists, sorry. A "fakeness", as you might
Unfortunately, in life, the majority of a population gets to make the rules. It's not always fair, but that's just how it is in a modern society.
The way you phrase your opinion is how it becomes unkind or not. That's where tact comes in then. I think feedback, the way you mean it, isn't the right word to use for neurotypical people. What, I think, you should say is, "Tell me what's wrong with this and you don't have to be nice about it."
Ah yeah what's worse is when they use subjective or technical criticism for methods you don't even use. Like they use terms I don't but I'm self-taught lol.
I’m sorry. I’m an English teacher and I do try to teach people how to give good feedback.
Appreciate you for this. The real MVPs!
This, all day long. I have learned to clarify when people ask for feedback/what I think. "What are you looking for? Do you want to be assured you did well, or do you want opportunities to improve?" Saves me so much trouble.
At the same time, it doesn't matter how clearly I ask for feedback or give examples of how I like to receive it. People will not share anything other than "It's great!" (Or, "it's terrible" if they don't like me). Never something I can actually put into action to improve.
the worst is when i ask for advice on something specific that i KNOW i did wrong only to be told "looks great nothing wrong with it" and "omg why are you putting yourself down its awesome" and, sometimes, feedback totally unrelated to what im trying to fix!
I think because NT usually just want validation rather than constructive feedback, they tend to assume everyone else wants the same even if they don't. And ND are assuming other people will appreciate genuine feedback when all they really want is a pat on the back.🤦♀️
That could be more than one thing going on there. If people know you're neurodivergent, and they don't know how to talk to you properly, they will default to the mindset that says, "I can't ever criticize this person because they have a disability". A lot of people see it as a learning disability.
That's definitely not it. I stick to primarily neurodivergent spaces and even that aside I'm not shouting in .just servers about it. It's more likely that people have just started seeing criticism as mean because si much online criticism is just bullying.
That's a good point. "Criticism" has a negative connotation in the US, specifically because it's usually framed as, "This is what you did wrong." and people don't always want to hear it that way without some cushioning.
thats not what im talking about. im talking about the fact that a lot of ppl online have straightup bullied younger artists claiming "its just criticism", when theyd actually just insulted them and, well, again, bullied them.
and sometimes they did have legitimate tips, but that doesn't matter if you drive a massive fanbase to go harass them. so because so many people throw shit around destructively as opposed to being constructive, its taken on that stigma.
think is "honest".
man thats not just a nd problem. i immediately dont trust people that say "i say it how it is" or "im a very honest person deal with it" or w/e. though sometimes we truly dont realise when weve said something hurtful. i cant tell when im being rude. i just do my best and let people know in advance
Neurodiverse people seem to have a much more difficult problem with it than others.
You're right. They honestly, in a number of cases, don't think they're bullying anyone. To me, it's the almost the same when a neurodivergent person claims they're not being rude or mean or hurtful when they don't or refuse to phrase things, when they already know how, when they say what they just
Right? You can repeat yourself til you're blue in the face or explain it a million different ways...I think they just don't care.
This is because most people don't think in literal terms most of the time. Unless they specify, they don't actually want to know the literal truth, especially in cases where they dread your answer, especially if you don't know how to frame crap as not crap politely.
This is my life
This is also a part of American culture. Go to Germany and you will get a plethora of unsolicited constructive criticism.
Very good point
Learned this the hard way! Now generally go with platitudes or get feedback from them first and echo their approach back to them. Think only way round it is if someone relatively introspective wants feedback, you can ask "what do YOU think went well/less well" & that gives you a route in
That's a nice thoughtful way to do it without coming off as rude.
Funny sometimes you want feedback, but some feedback can be brutal. Most people don't want to upset others.
This is something that neurodivergent people aren't biological set up to understand as they don't process emotions, expectations, and social cues the same way. There's no automatic understanding of tact with neurodivergent people.
But do know right from wrong. That's a learned cue.
I wouldn't call that a cue. It's something inborn in most people, for the most part, other than learning individual immoral and illegal behaviors.
Common failure. Communication isn't easy.
I can relate. I don't match enough criteria to be on the spectrum, but I relate.
Been there. Do this.
IMO this comes down to an issue in communication styles. One wanting in-depth analysis based on fact logic and reasoning or evidence, while in contrast the other side taking things more emotional, social, or communitive… In fear of hurting the “artist” feelings we provide shallow “it’s great”
One of the key social markers of neurodivergence is a different communication style. So yes I am commenting on how ND people communicate directly and how NT people do not, but put the weight of guessing and adjusting on the ND people because not communicating clearly or directly is often the norm
Allistics: "Read my mind!" Autistics: "People can't read minds! What on earth are you not talking about?"
Where they are really looking at it from an academic or professional manner and strive for an in-depth critiques and analysis for further improvement. Here the academic, May be coming from the heart with evidence and proof and solutions or “support” to walk you through the feedback…
Having also gone to art school, critiques and feedback are integral and something that becomes normalized too. Similar to academia’s peer reviewing, you learn to get past any defensiveness and genuinely head and consider feedback. And you grow from it
However, it may come across wrong in that it’s condescending or manipulative or aggressive/egregious or something… where really they are just looking for an additional body/mind for the moral and mental or spiritual support. Thus, picking up on, or establishing more through questions on what your
Intent vs interpretation vs desires may be… Instead of simply hey can I get you feed back, if you want and in-depth review, give more suggestive ask of what do you things of the copy or the s design or evidence I presented or something so it’s not as vague…
I developed the coping mechanism of over explaining my intentions & what I am really looking for so I can be as clear as possible to NT people & that is often also not received well or overwhelming. It’s exhausting and often feels lose-lose, seems much more efficient to be succinct, honest, direct
And on the other side, we need to more directly state, I’d like you to support my hobbies or dreams or aspirations or research by either agreeing nor disagreeing and then when we are ready, if/when it comes back to it, we can both delve deeper into enhancements or contradictions and the like…
I appreciate this but you sent 5 long replies in the same minute and responding to each one feels overwhelming and less like a conversation and more like you are talking at me. I don’t think that is intended. I think you thought I wanted advice when I was really just venting what I’ve observed
Accidental vent on my observation as well. ND myself & having similar conversations around communication with my partner. Appreciate your response. Expected them to maybe get read by not respond to. Your first reply also was something I had missed in my initial reading / interpretation.
I had a feeling you might be a fellow ND. I too am guilty of a vent/rant and realize all your replies were thoughtful and engaged. I appreciate you not thinking I was yelling at you or not reading your thoughts. Just a bit overwhelmed with all at once, but totally get it
Also was a vent based on just the first post, not seeing the additional clarification from you first comment. So that and the first reply to my thread help and as you said more than enough. Apologies if some of this felt more at you the with you. Wish you the best! Keep up the great work!
NeuroSpicy - cause the bland brain liars can't handle a bit of Caliente ♨️
I still have trouble with when people ask How are you today? To Not tell them honestly details but what do you think .... & I have to gasp air to just say ok fine THX for asking
This is what is called, usually, a "surface level question". It's a general pleasantry. Almost no one, other than your doctor, wants a detailed history of your specific condition that day or week in detail. The impulse to say more is a different issue when you know people aren't literally asking.
Perhaps ask for a critique?
Communication is being eroded by being online. Households messaging each other in the same room..then asking, "Did you get my message?"
…..mmmhmmm…this reminds me of the time my gf asked if I liked something she had cooked for dinner….she wasn’t anticipating the truth.
Oh nooo lol. I get wanting validation but I don't understand why people ask questions when they don't actually want a response, or at least an honest answer. Why even ask?🤦♀️ They could just say, I feel like this didn't come out very good or ask for support instead of fishing for compliments.
Every time.
Think of people asking for feedback like a woman asking if an outfit makes her look fat.
But giving feedback is a lot more helpful in so many contexts and in important skill to learn and grow from. It’s not the same (or shouldn’t be the same) as a white lie
You're coming at it from an, "I want to grow and learn as much as possible" mindset. That's not the mindset of most people in general. Most people just want to get through the day with the least amount of hassle and upset as possible so they can go home.
You're looking at it from an almost clinical or Vulcan-level logical point of view. Neurotypical people don't typically exist that way, at least the majority of the nice ones don't. For neurotypical people to take feedback that way, they almost have to be on a different level of consciousness.
I think one of the reasons I do this? Is because simplistic positivity makes me feel like I'm being placated, whereas detailed positive feedback shows me where you actually like something so I can't dismiss it as easily. It feels more genuine. Which is why we do it ourselves.
Yes! You really locked in and read it and it made you think. When someone takes the time to give thoughtful feedback, they are helping me (or trying to, I realize not all feedback is great, but the intention is important and appreciated)
Right? Most NT just want be placated and given a pat on the back without ever SAYING that, when many ND actually want authentic, constructive feedback and are ignored even when we specifically ask for it.
Many neurotypical people want, in some amount, to be placated because it feels good.
For me...oops...for my human, it was "do the job" and encouraged open feedback was actually a litmus test. If you said anymore than "it's great" you failed.
People asking for feedback (especially from peers as apposed to mentors/supervisors) are typically looking for affirmation and encouragement rather than critique.
Giving and receiving feedback are difficult, complex skills. Being neurodivergent adds complexity and challenge on top of an already complex and challenging task. Like this isn't something that ever just happens, is my point. Getting useful feedback is a skill to be built.
And being accused of 'fishing for compliments' when actually you genuinely want to know.
You have to remember that many, if not most or all, neurotypical adults don't really want the bald-faced unadulterated truth when they ask something. It's like when someone asks you how you are. They don't actually want a long literal explanation. It's a general surface inquiry.
But it's all so counterintuitive. And their 'rules' make no sense. I reply to questions I'm asked in good faith, thinking the asker has asked because they're genuinely interested. And I don't know how you can tell the difference. I wish they wouldn't do it.
Just FYI, I'm neurotypical in this sense, but I'm physically disabled, so I developed an insight into miscommunications and the way people think like this.
necessary. You don't have to phrase things without any concern for how the other person might take what you're saying. It's part of the general nature of how, at least in nations like the US, humans are as a whole when they're neurotypical.
I think you can be tactful, sympathetic, understanding, without having to scroll through a list in your head of all the possible ways someone MIGHT take your words; the possibilities are endless and that's on the listener. It's very frustrating to say things and someone hears something else.
Well, no, you can't account for everything, but thinking first is important.
One of my least favourite phrases is; "What did you mean by that?" I meant exactly what I said. Just the words, nothing more. If you thought anything else you made it up yourself. I did think l, and I was being very clear. NTs don't like clear. They speak in riddles and expect you to guess.
Almost no one speaks or thinks literally that way. That's the problem. That can be a huge problem depending on the situation. It's a default for neurotypical people to couch things in a way that they believe will be as unconfrontational and unproblematic as possible.
"Almost no one speaks or thinks literally that way." Almost no-one. Seriously? NTs speak in riddles. They say one thing but mean another. They leave out important details and expect you to just know. They hear things that haven't been said, then blame the person who said it for being the problem.
They "hear things that haven't been said" because there are learned inferences and intentions behind the way certain things are said in a society, usually, that mean certain things. Neurodivergent people don't think that way and the neurotypical person can't guess that you're neurodivergent.
You can learn these missing bits over time. Neurotypical people don't think or speak literally most of the time the way you would want.
ALL THE TIME. And then say it's an ND problem. Whereas we have no problem understanding people who speak clearly, in facts, use details, answer questions AND DON'T INFER THINGS THAT AREN'T THERE. That's the important bit. Why would you do that?
It's not counterintuitive to neurotypical people. On one level, they are genuinely interested. However, neurotypical people don't, unless they're jerks, continually and repeatedly say things that illicit a response that's caused from the neurotypical person being hurt or offended. Tact is...
I remember I ordered LOTS of parts rebuilding my car, and my go-to website emailed me asking me to update them on my build. I wrote a long thought-out email about what I had been doing, the car’s backstory, future plans, etc… I never heard from them again. Should have just said the parts are great.
It's because they're trained to ask you how things are, but they don't literally have time to read such very lengthy responses. If most people, or everyone, did it, it would be too time consuming and counterproductive to read them entirely for the business.
If they ask such a specific question, you can do SOME background, but they're not asking you to write a novel or dissertation. A page length at most would have sufficed, at most.
.. especially when they have only asked you for your feedback because they have to, and not because they care or will do anything useful with it.
I'm not sure if this is a neurodivergent experience. Then again, I just hate that term, because it implies there's a certain "correct" and "normal functioning"; whereas society itself is a "divergence" from nature, therefore being products of this divergence, we are all necessarily neurodivergent.
That’s what I commented on in the second part or reply, I think a lot of folks missed To label it as “divergence” is frustrating. I get the shorthand of what they mean but was pointing out why the language itself is frustrating too bsky.app/profile/leen...
I see. I didn't quite interpret that second comment to be a critique of the concept of neurodivergence, but a doubling down on it. It seemed to me what you were describing was simply a clash of communication; "dropping pretenses" requires a certain level of vulnerability, openness.
Perhaps your interlocutor didn't feel safe sharing with you, in which case, they could use this neurodivergent argument in the reverse direction. Which is why I think the concept is essentially worthless.
Biologically, there is a standard way the brain and nervous system work for the vast majority of human beings. It is "normal functioning", literally.
There can be structurally normal brains, but there is no "standard" "normal" brain functioning on a phenomenological level. Like a fingerprint, every brain is more similar than different, yet unique. "Neurodivergent," implies there's a "normal" a priori mode of behavior/experiential interpretation.
There is a biologically normal manner in which the nervous system functions as most people function a certain way. If there weren't a normal mode of these things, most people would not actually behave in those manners.
The basis for "normal" is not just physiological structural "correctness;" no two humans, no matter how identical, will experience the world in the same way - even if all things, including their biology (twins), is identical. Behavior is NOT reducible to biology.
No, it's not entirely. You're right. Experience is essentially subjective. Biology is a basis for what's abnormal, though, in a huge number of ways. Otherwise, medical science wouldn't have baselines and metrics to follow in diagnosis.
Right, and now you've come to the problem: biological integrity is NOT what is meant by "neurodivergence." In psychiatry/psychology there's a replication crisis because of the lack of "neurotypicality," as we are all, subjects of a "divergent" (from nature) mode of living.
If you're not talking about how the brain works in a way that isn't a normal functioning, then you're saying it somehow has nothing to do with medical science or biology. That doesn't make sense because it would mean it's not a physical condition when it is.
Welcome to psychology, lol. Biology *cannot* explain behavioral phenomena, because as a species we are living in enormous, complex, fictitious social organizations; "neurodivergence" is an empty attempt to explain why some aren't "behaving right" in a particular social setting.
You're basically saying that psychology discounts medical science and physical tangible reality. That doesn't sound right.
🎯
Having to remind myself to not take feedback personally and totally reinvent myself over and over as I'm receiving it. Then giving devastating feedback like I'm ordering a cheeseburger.
This. All day.
I agree. I also think all relationships should have exit interviews. How can I improve otherwise?
A relationship is not an occupation.
What if I call it a constructive criticism session?
That doesn't help. A relationship is not an occupation or job that gives a personnel evaluation of someone's performance. A relationship doesn't have performance metrics or written standards that must be met like a project.
Not performance metrics, but expectations. It is work to maintain relationships. Albeit a labor of love.
Yes, as long as you put those expectations out there at the beginning.
I don’t think neurodivergence is a unique marker of wanting honest feedback. It was the standard in all my writing groups to give honest feedback, especially in professional circles. In my experience, those that couldn’t handle feedback were inexperienced.
Neurotypical people, in general, don't want the literal level and type of feedback that the neurodivergent people in this thread are talking about. Your writing groups are a subset who went looking for such a thing on purpose. That's not the vast majority of people, at least Americans.
Agree to disagree.
About what? We're not talking about paint preferences. We're talking about real human behavior and attitudes.
At a certain professional level, writers will want honest opinions and know to state so clearly. People that don’t, simply don’t make it into even semi-professional levels. And there are plenty of variation in neuro-conditions in semipro and pro circles, from my personal experience.
You're right, but that's not something you "agree to disagree" about because it's a fact of academia in that case. Most people won't go looking for harsh answers on purpose in general. Academia is a subset of people who will in many fields.
Feel this!
I ask for feedback when it’s important because I want a review of tone, content (too much detail?), verification of links, etc. “It’s great”: did you even read it? I’ve read that positive feedback and other appreciation is most effective if you explicitly note something you like about the work.
my strategy these days is: "what e level of comments do you want? comma fucking? notes on structure? notes on content? or just general impressions?" the later being "you did great"
This x a billion.
That’s not uniquely a neurodivergent experience, it’s shared across the spectrum of divergent/typical. This is a communication issue—expectations should be clear across the board.
Communication is a key difference between neurotypical and neurodivergent. I am not looking to capture all the nuance or exceptions or outliers here. I am talking about this topic in the realm of neurodivergent people in this post
It’s also cultural, societal, personality, and context or relationship dependent. but I am talking about a general trend and key difference in communication styles that is a well known difference in communication styles between allistic and ND people here
I’m neurodivergent. Yes, comm styles differ btwn divergent & typical, but the situation u described is due to not setting expectations from the jump. I get what ur saying & I’ve experienced this, but it’s on both parties to b specific, ask Qs to clarify. This is a professional development thing.
As OP said, this is a pervasive problem for Autistic and neurodivergent folks where we're expected to be mind readers and interpret hidden meanings or lies and automatically know what NT want. Yes its an issue with unclear expectations, but thats BECAUSE of the difference between ND and NT here.
You're missing the point. This issue may come up in other situations but the post was *specifically* about communication difficulties between neurodivergent and neurotypical folks and how ND always have the burden of accommodation placed on them instead of neurotypicals just saying what they mean.
to be bald-faced brutal honesty that doesn't take the other person's possible reactions into account. Tact is going to be used to make sure the other person isn't upset. Neurodivergent people are literally the majority of people who can handle unvarnished truth when it might be negative.
This is because most neurotypical people are, unless they're awful people, taught from childhood how to communicate and often don't think about "saying what they mean" the way you mean it. Everything is surface level unless you know someone personally for a long time and, even then, it's not going
If I'm understanding you correctly, right, that's the whole problem. NT aren't just taught that when ND aren't, its a major difference in the way our brains work. Yes, sadly they don't see expecting ND to be mind readers as an issue, or assuming everyone wants placating validation like they do.
like communicating that way without having to think before you speak. That doesn't work in a modern society.
because they find it difficult or they don't like it. That's not how being an adult works. If you refuse to adapt, or even try, that's no longer on neurotypical people. That's you wanting, and this is the honesty level you al appear to want, to be given a license to be mean or a jerk because you
So please stop acting like ND are being assholes when they're going out of their way to figure out how to get better clarification and make NT feel better bc NT are refusing to do it themselves in these situations. Again, PLEASE read OPs post and the comments as many times as is helpful.
or how I say it.
You're not "being assholes" unless you refuse to try to learn what to say and how to say it. You are trying to force society, and yes it is society, to be what you want it to be and that's just not how it works. No matter how many times you tell me to read things again, it's not going to change
Assuming ND are 'mean' or 'jerks' bc they thought someone wanted GENUINE FEEDBACK or failed to ASSUME that person just wanted a pat on the back or is bringing up a pervasive issue for ND is really ableist. ND have discussed repeatedly how to tackle this issue and better accommodate NT.
Your idea of "genuine feedback" is not how neurotypical people generally think of that phrase. That's a problem in itself. You, no matter if you don't like it, be specific, as I have said, to get the response you want, and hope that the person in question can give it to you.
You say these things as if two NT folks in the situation mentioned can easily assume what the other person wants or expects, and then deliver the unspoken expectations.
Again, that was the WHOLE POINT. Why are ND ALWAYS expected to adapt to make NTs comfortable, but NT are not when they refuse to just say what they want directly? There's a lot of ableism and infantilization in these assumptions and its incredibly problematic.
you want it unless you say, as I have said twice now, something like, "What's wrong with it? You don't have to be nice." and even then, you're not 100 percent of the time going to get that Vulcan-like response from people who can't bring themselves to communicate that way.
You have to, whether you like it or not, and that's the absolute truth in this case, accept and go along with the fact that the majority gets to make the societal rules, period! It's not "comfort" to a neurotypical person. It's how things are in society. You're not going to get a response like
behavior. Now, what occurred to me is that, yes, neurotypical people should care about how neurodivergent people see and understand things, but from some neurodivergent people, I get the feeling that they think they shouldn't have to even try to follow the general society's rules for tact just
problem. As I told someone else, you have to be specific with neurotypical people and say something like, "What do you think about this? You don't have to be nice about it." That'll get you what you want unless the person in question is emotionally incapable of being that direct due to learned
Why are ND expected to be 'specific' when they already are or communicate better, but NT are not, when they're repeatedly not and refuse to speak directly? This is called ableism. As is assuming ND are being 'rude or mean' by offering genuine feedback. Again, please reread OPs post and the comments.
reasonable to expect that you should be able to learn how to do and do it. I read them all. You simply don't agree with what I'm saying. You want people to speak to you as you require to the exclusion of all else or you call it wrong. That's not how it work being an adult in the modern world.
It's just true. They're not going to "speak directly" because it's not a thing in the world in general society for neurotypical people the way you want it. I don't agree with your definition of ableism and I'm physically disabled, BTW. Learning how to say something and what to say is not beyond
It's just a fact that neurotypical people are the majority and don't think or speak literally like you would want. That means it's up to you to be specific when you want feedback that neurotypical people might often find objectionable and just wrong to give in a certain way. It's not fair.
If ND folks are better at communicating this situation would occur less frequently w ND pple. I’m not calling anyone rude, and I’m not being ableist. You’re not understanding, and you’re making sweeping generalizations about both NT & ND folks. I’m not being ableist, and you are wrong. ✌🏼
It's NOT about ignoring rules for tact or thinking we don't have to accommodate society rules when that's ALL we've done our whole lives to make NT comfortable. That was the whole point of the post. And no one is using that as an excuse to be rude. NO IDEA where you're getting that from.
Oh, there are people who want to be able to say whatever they like without having to care about how it sounds or is received.
I think you need to reread OPs post and the comments. That's not at all what anyone is saying. The issue is even when we DO communicate directly, we're still ignored. The issue is we're expected to understand hidden meanings or unspoken rules or assumptions when people could just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN.
You have to personally and literally ask for it in terms like, "What's wrong with this? You don't have to be nice about it."
That's what I meant when I said you should be able to learn how not to say things and if you refuse, that's no longer on the neurodivergent people. People aren't going to "say what they mean" the exact way you like or want it in many countries because it's not a socially appropriate thing to do.
Something just occurred to me a few minutes ago as I was thinking about this problem. First, they're not asking you to literally read their minds, but, over time, you should be able to remember and learn specific things not to say in a certain way. If you refuse, that's no longer anyone else's
That is a bizarre broad generalization about NT people. I don’t know why you think the majority of NT people dismiss requested, detailed feedback. Ask for specifics. This isn’t a NT/ND issue.
Issues with communication and not understanding NT unspoken expectations or unspoken society rules are huge hallmarks of ND, specifically Autism, so I hope you can learn to listen to ND people as well as their valid experiences and concerns without dismissing the issue entirely. Be well.✌
The thing you're not getting is that, as the neurodivergent person in the minority in a society, whether you like it or not, it's on you to learn this stuff if possible.
It's literally discussed repeatedly in the post and comments, even when we ask specifically for detailed feedback, we're refused. We ARE ASKING for specifics, BUT NT are NOT, but we always have to accommodate??? You can say it as many times as you want but the comments prove otherwise. It's ableist.
Ok, have it your way. You're not going to take on any other view than the one you already have even if it's the majority. Goodbye.
🙄🙄🙄
Please reread the post and all the comments as many times as you need. Again, this is sounding a lot like internalized ableism. I hope you're willing to ask yourself why it's okay to dismiss and ignore the experience of a majority of ND people, as well as core aspects of Autism and neurodivergence.
The burden of what? In what way(s) are ND folks forced to accommodate others in situations like these? Ideally, how would u like NT pple to help balance this “burden”?
I would read all the comments by other neurodivergent folks here instead of just dismissing this issue. Feels like internalized ableism. AGAIN, yes, it applies to other situations, but that WASN'T THE POINT HERE. IT'S ABOUT COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ND AND NT. NT could actually just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN.
I literally just explained all of that. ND are expected to watch their tone, words, change how they behave, interpret unspoken rules, be mind readers, etc etc etc. Like I said, it occurs in other cases, but it is a PERVASIVE problem for ND folks when NT could just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN.🤦♀️
Neurodivergent people somehow don't learn the generally expected or accepted responses and when to use them. Neurotypical people learn them almost without trying.
Some days I'm able to be there for ALL of my friends. Some days, "it's fine" is the best anyone is going to get. Maybe ask the same questions on a different day rather than be disappointed. Everyone can't help you all the time. Sometimes, it's because they need help.
If I’m not up to it, I’ve learned to say something along the lines of “I’d like to be able to give you a good answer, but I’m distracted/exhausted/tapped out/overwhelmed right now. Can it wait for another time?” Works for me, anyway. The general concept, that is. Constructive honesty w/boundaries.
Great approach
That works for some people/situations/moments... We still need to understand that, as much as we'd like to use everyone as a crutch, they/we don't all have the immediate bandwidth. Sometimes that is expressed as, "I'm sorry, I can't right now." Other times it's, "It's fine." Don't judge.
Still thinking about that. It’s so foreign to me, I’m curious. If you feel like it, could you tell me why “I can’t right now” would ever need to be replaced with “It’s fine”? And how would they know the difference when you really mean “It’s fine”, vs. “I feel like you’re using me as a crutch”?
You're assuming that everyone can give a cogent and fully present answer to every question... I'm simply suggesting that we don't all have that bandwidth and presuming we do is compounding whatever problem the OP was suggesting.
Oh, no, I *know* we can’t always do that! I sure know I can’t. That’s why having short and easy ways of expressing an honest “Can’t, right now” works for me. Preserves others’ ability to trust me when I tell them any version of “It’s fine”, with no more cost to me.
We all judge — in that sense. We have to, and nothing wrong with it, imo. Personally, if I ask for feedback, there’s a distinct reason, and it’s not insecurity. But “It’s fine” because you see the questioner the way you describe, sounds unnecessarily patronizing, to me. Different approaches.
Not at all. It's when one has expectations for an interaction based ONLY on their own state of mind... that we have forgotten how to be humans. We focus on our own issues... rightfully. But we shouldn't point fingers while others are doing the same.
I completely agree with the basic premise, that we need to keep in mind that other people have their own struggles going on, which they may not feel like sharing with us. They might even (a huge problem I’m trying to ‘recover’ from) be so good at pretending to be fine, that you’d never know.
I’m still stuck on assuming they’re using others as a crutch, unless you’re thinking of specific cases where you have reason to think that? B/c a lot of requests for feedback are not in that category. Though some may be. For me, I want people to know that when I say “It’s fine”, it really is.
Everyday! I’m 65 years old and I still struggle with that same frustration.
Hell, yeah. 😔
🤔
With trial and error in this department, I ask about the level of feedback they are looking for before responding...
Wow your post, it’s great!